How has the General Attitude Toward Muzzle Direction Changed over the Years?

[John Wayne]

Generally speaking, the people that I know who own firearms are safe, competent, responsible individuals, and good people to boot. I have encountered numerous people while at the range, gun store, hunt club, etc., however, who seem to have no regard whatsoever for muzzle direction.

When I point this out, people act like there's something wrong with me for not wanting a gun to be pointed in my direction. They act like I'm some kind of safety freak who would be afraid to walk in front of a parked car. When I point out the fact that they have a gun pointed in my direction, they mumble, grumble, and complain about how they're completely safe, or know more about guns than me (lifelong gun owner, law enforcement, military, ex-LE/Military, I've seen and heard all kinds of excuses).

Call me weird or whatever you like, but I do not like and hope I never get to the level of complacency where I can tolerate having a gun pointed at me by anyone. I know how guns function, and have seen enough examples of what bullets can do to know that I do not want to be hit by one for any reason, especially by someone's careless mistake. I would also like to point out that I am specifically referring to firearms that have the actions closed--if you sweep me with a gun that has the action locked open, locked, or otherwise disabled I do not have a problem with it (don't think it's a good habit, but as I can verify the firearm is incapable of firing, do not consider it a risk).

You can spend as much money on a gun as you want, clean it however you like, become proficient in its use, and carry it as part of your job, but if you point it at me then we're going to have a problem.

Now, I haven't been shooting for an eternity, so I was wondering if some of the older shooters here could comment on whether this is a new trend, or if people have always been idiots. I'm also curious as to how others deal with this issue.

 

[kimbernut]

Nothing new

It's nothing new but it's never to be tolerated either- even with actions open muzzles are always to be pointed downrange or up. After a couple of tactful warnings and a last one not so tactful people at our club have lost their membership for this offense.
Although it is never to be tolerated we have a very large population of new shooters (since the 2008 election) that are in serious need of proper firearms education. Egos often stand in the way of that education but it's imperative that we try first.

 

[kinkinhood]

Never point a gun at something you're not ready to shoot.

 

[Warhawk83]

I'm fairly new to shooting (2 years) and fairly young (27). I have flustered a few guys who swept me with their guns,the older ones get quite angry. They didn't like having a young guy telling them they shouldn't be doing something. I'm quite polite and tactful but it doesn't matter, people don't like to be corrected any way you slice it. In my short experience at the range, it's happened quite a few times. I get swept 10 times as much at gun shops though.

 

[Tommygunn]

It has always been my understanding that you do not aim a firearm at anything you do not wish to kill or destroy. In this light, muzzle control is always important and I do not blithely allow the muzzle of a firearm I am carrying to swing around with abandon to cover people who are nearby.
That being said, there have always been people who will be careless about this matter.
It's not a modern phenomenon....nor do I believe it will go away.

 

[AOK]

I don't know what your background is in guns but after I started taking defensive firearm classes a few years ago and training on a regular basis I became MUCH more aware of poor muzzle discipline by others. I know it was probably always there, I just never noticed it as much because of my lack of awareness.

There has also been a boom in the gun industry since Obama came into office for new Concealed Pistol Lisences (at least in Michigan there has). With many new gun owners with very limited/basic classes, I think there's bound to be more poor gun handling.

Ultimately I think a big part of the problem boils down to little to no quality defensive firearm classes and/or lack of gun handling. I've seen gun owners who have very good intentions and try to be very safe with their guns but they only get out to shoot once or twice a year and it shows more than just on the holes they punch in targets. To be honest, up until a few years ago I probably fell under that category.

I know there are other things contributing to muzzle discipline problems but these are just of few of my opinions and observations on the issue.

 

[SwampWolf]

They didn't like having a young guy telling them they shouldn't be doing something. I'm quite polite and tactful but it doesn't matter, people don't like to be corrected any way you slice it

Tough, I say. People who aren't mindful of where the muzzles of their guns are pointed need to be called out and if I see them do it, they'd be lucky if I were "polite and tactful" and I don't care what age they are. Where your gun is pointed is the essence of safe gun handling. At age 67, I'm no spring chicken, and because nobody is perfect, I'd be grateful if somebody pointed out an unsafe gun handling practice on my part and I don't care how old the "critic" is.
You cannot be too safe when handling a firearm and none of us are above reproach if we are handling a gun in an unsafe manner. Shame on those older folks who display unsafe practices, despite all their years of "experience", and especially when they expressed anger when a younger shooter had to bring their bad habits to their attention. And kudos to you, particularly at your young age and level of experience, for "telling them they shouldn't be doing something" unsafe.
As for John Wayne's question:

Now, I haven't been shooting for an eternity, so I was wondering if some of the older shooters here could comment on whether this is a new trend, or if people have always been idiots.

No, unfortunately, some people have always been idiots and unsafe gun handling is not a "new trend". But the practice should NEVER be tolerated.

 

[Daveboone]

???
I myself have not witnessed any change in attitude about muzzle direction. It is a no compromise issue that I sure as hell wouldnt tolerate any slack in, nor would anyone I know. I belong to two different clubs, an indoor pistol club and a general sportsmans club. At neither is any sloppiness like that tolerated.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

I typically go to state run ranges, and they enforce muzzle control pretty effectively (along with other rules of varying worth).

 

[22-rimfire]

Years ago I took a hunter safety course; actually several including the instructors course. One of the stressed items is and has always been muzzle control. Nothing has changed.

You have to be reasonable about the muzzle control issue. For example, I recall folks saying how unsafe the shooters were on the Swamp People show (gator trapping)... pointing a rifle at whatever, shooting into water, and once shooting inside the boat... These are real people using firearms as a tool and sometimes tools slip and you have to shoot into the water or you don't kill the gator.

I recall getting really irritated with my older brother even when he "pointed a bow and arrow" at me and the arrow was not even fully drawn back. He also liked to wing me with his BB gun from time to time... muzzle control. Kids, what can I say?

You need to be reasonable, but flagrant dis-regard for basic muzzle control is not a very tolerable thing especially after you mention it to the person being careless regardless of age.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Last trip to a gun shop (Cabela's, Glendale, AZ) had me ducking a lot. Lots of guys sighting shotguns at head level instead of at the roof.

I don't care who you are looking down the barrel of a 12 ga. is spooky.

 

[MarkDozier]

I am an Range Officer at 2 local ranges. I am also NRA RSO and muzzel control is enforced.
I call people on it at the range, in stores and in most cases folks are ignorant even "expericed" shooters.
You can be as mad as you want if I dog you about saftey, but I don' have room for extra holes in my hide.
I am even aware of muzzel direction when I remove my carry weapon and set it on the dresser.

 

[Iam2taz]

Just over 30 years ago my Grandfather dropped his membership at his local conservation club for this very reason. I can remember being there with him at the range and he got really irritated with a few of the guys there who gave him some guff because he got on them about their lack taking care of their weapons. Next spring rolled around and we didn't go back. He was a WWII vet and had no use for morons.

That said, If I was unintendly pointing a weapon at someone, I would hope the person would say something. The problem that I have seen is that many people are so engrossed in the 'its all about me and up yours' attitude, that they just don't give a hoot. I jointed a local range/club late this year just to get away from the nuts at the free range.

Have things changed? I don't think so. Some people don't know. Some people don't care. I am always ready with a kind word for a fellow shooter. Who knows, maybe they will learn something from me or me from them....

 

[TrakHack]

I think it depends on how you're introduced to things. I'm betting folks here play by the book when it comes to such things.

My basic handgun instructor focused on muzzle control a LOT. I was brand new to handling a gun so I had to learn deliberate control but didn't have to unlearn any bad habits. I still hear him say "watch where you're pointing that!" whenever I handle my gun.

I've noticed the people I know who didn't take formal basic instruction aren't necessarily purposefully dangerous or careless with the muzzle, but they aren't deliberate in their actions, either. That difference in mindset makes a big difference to me. I'm also the kind of person who tries to frame things as what should be done versus what should not be done: "Always point the muzzle in a safe direction" is slightly different than "never point the muzzle at something you're not willing to destroy." With the first way of thinking I wouldn't point at a concrete floor, but with second way I might.

I wouldn't hesitate to correct someone handling a firearm in an unsafe manner around me. It's part of my personality and charm...

 

[gabepossenti]

Check out these WWII training films on marksmanship. They've got all the demonstrators pointing their M1's at the audience of servicemen. (No worries. It's just a 30-06.) I think maybe there is a certain sort of casual attitude towards gun safety that total war might engender.

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

 

[killchain]

NEVER EVER EVER EVER point a gun, regardless of what it is, at ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.

End of discussion.

 

[A.H. Fox]

I don't associate with folks who have such a disregard for firearms safety.

There is no excuse, no second chances. You don't follow rule number one 110% of the time I got no use for you.

I have had close, long time friends friends that violated this rule. Friends we are no more. Acquaintances sure. Really ticks off my wife. Nothing personal, not gunna get angry, did not even point it out to them when it happened. Just left. Typically it is completely unintentional. I just don't associate with them anymore outside of the inevitable and unavoidable casual encounter. Always polite. If, during these inevitable encounters, they ask why "we haven't talked much or seen each other much" I politely and diplomatically deflect and minimize the encounter.

I have plenty of friends who "get it" and have firearms safety at the fore front of their mind when around firearms.

That's just me though.

 

[Sav .250]

If one is pointed in my direction, you can bet the farm you`ll hear about it !
Plus it`s down right ......stupid!!

 

[ruger700]

Over 50 years ago, my cousin and four of his friends went out shooting. When they got home and began cleaning their guns; one of his friends put his shotgun to shoulder and said look Jimmy. The dry fire turned into live fire. Thankfully, Jimmy instinctly threw his gun up in front of his face. His quick action saved his life but not his eyes.
Follow the rule, don't point the gun at something that you do not intend to kill.

 

[Franco2shoot]

I guess my only question WRT muzzle direction would be up versus down. I've always instructed my sons to keep the muzzle down range or DOWN. Don't need any holes in the tin roof at the range.

KKKKFL

 

[JohnBT]

I'd say that 50 years ago it was rarer to see somebody waving the muzzle around. It's just harder to do when you have a beer in one hand and cigar in the other.

John

 

[A.H. Fox]

...keep it unloaded until you need to shoot it. Then keep the unloaded gun pointing down. If the gun is loaded keep it pointing straight up or holstered in the case of a pistol. I see no need for a long gun or shotgun to be loaded while handling unless you need to use it. I tend to go for the unloaded down/holstered situations.

Nit pickers can start the "every little situation" comments.

 

[kimbernut]

John BT, You crack me up!

Franco2shoot, We have a youth shoot 1st Sat. of every month Oct.- Apr. at our club that is open to the public. .22lr only with club owned rifles and ammunition. A part of our initial safety briefing is how to carry the rifle at all times to and from your station. Bolt open and muzzle up with a two hand hold- one under the butt and the other gripping the forarm. The reason for muzzle up is given as better a hole in the roof than in a person.
Muzzle down toward our concrete floor would pretty much guarantee a ricochet.

 

[doc540]

Gun shops seem to be the worst offenders.

The owners and employees should know better, but many don't seem to take the issue seriously.

 

[Nushif]

"Always point the muzzle in a safe direction" is slightly different than "never point the muzzle at something you're not willing to destroy."

I see both sides of the spectrum on muzzle control pretty regularly.

And I really think the extremes are the ones that have me worried. You see some seriously untrained and unwilling to be corrected shooters who really do have no regard for safety or the errr ... comfort level of others when it comes to having a firearm pointed at them. Odd, right? Not wanting a loaded gun pointed at your face.
On the other hand there are folks out there who oddly enough run Air Force ranges a lot. I can honestly say that while I feel very safe at an Air Force Range I also feel like I'm in prison. I've been yelled at, cursed out, called a dirtbag, threatened with all kinds of stuff, simply for doing SPORTS and the instructor didn't explicitely *see* my gun jam.

Overall I feel pretty safe that 90% of the shooting community is safe and responsible about it and always has been. Then there's 5% who drive new shooters away, because they are female hygiene products about very minor safety infractions (real or imagined), and then there's 5% who drive people away from ranges with their stupid behavior.