How hot is 9mm NATO???

[Greg8098]

I used to think that all 9x19 cartridges were roughly the same. But I hear that the military 9mm round is loaded quite hotter than the standard Winchester white box. Just how much faster is this stuff from the barrel, and where can it be found?

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

I could be very wrong but I was under the impression that winchester white box was essentially military seconds, and thus loaded to the same pressures.

I know there were some military 9mm rounds intended for submachine gun use and were loaded very hot, but I don't think they were ever very common.

 

[possum]

I shot alot of that 9mm at a range in the desert, i would say about 300rds myself and other big time handgun shooters in the company shoot alot more, and it didn't feel or shoot any different that any other ammo i have shot, in 9mm.

 

[GRIZ22]

I've found NATO spec 9mm chronogarphs 75-100 fps faster (depending on manufacturer) in my P1 about the same as most +p 9mm. The 9mm "sub gun" ammo I've tried chrongraphs the same or lower than standard 9mm. You have to remember thaat lower velocity doesn't mean lower pressure.

 

[jonnyc]

WWB is definitely not "military surplus" or NATO-spec. I have always thought the general rule was that NATO-spec 9x19 was +P.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Try Fiocchi 9mm. It used to be hot enough to be NATO spec. Haven't used any for a while so I can't speak for current production but it used to be very hot. I think +P is actually a little hotter than NATO spec.

 

[2TransAms]

My opinion

I don't have a chronograph,but the Federal NATO stuff definitely has more recoil than WWB. I don't know the velocity or pressure though. I can also tell that the NATO rounds don't snap as much as Gold Dot +P.

Word is that some WWB rounds have snuck out sporting a new WCC 06 headstamp with the NATO cross on them...may or may not be true.

 

[Chindo18Z]

US military issue ammunition is required to fall within a Standardized Agreement (STANAG) weight/pressure/velocity range for compatibility among NATO allies.

That said...

U.S. Cartridge, 9mm Ball, NATO, M882 (DODAC A364)
Bullet Weight: 112 Grains
Velocity: 1263 ps (+/- 5 fps), 15 ft. from muzzle
Case Mouth Pressure: 31,175 psi (avg), 36,250 psi (max)

Intended for anti-personnel use in Pistol, M9

Also approved for the following non-standard weapons:

Pistol:
HK P7 Series
Walther P38
FN P35 (Browning High Power)

SMG:
HK MP5/MP5SD
Beretta M12
IMI UZI
Sten MK II
Sterling 12A3
FFV M45/45B (Carl Gustav)
Madsen M50
CZ M23

As you can see, this performance was designed to function in both WWII era and more modern pistols/SMGs.

A few countries have designed purpose built hot SMG 9mm ammo (e.g., Finland). It is rarely encountered in military circles but may occasionally pop up as military surplus.

The US also has (had?) a type-designated 9mm SMG round:
Cartridge 9mm, Ball (DODAC A360)
Bullet Weight: 115 Grains
Velocity: 1125 fps (+/- 90 fps), 15 ft. from muzzle
Mid Case Pressure*: 38,500 psi (avg), 43,000 psi (max)
*Note: Mid case pressures normally run 8000 to 10,000 psi higher than case mouth pressure.

This round was designed to operate a 9mm modified M3 SMG (Greasegun) which was never put into general issue. The round is specifically prohibited for use in the M9 pistol.

Over almost 30 years of extensive military small arms firing (including all the weapons mentioned), I've only used SMG-only 9mm on one or two occassions. Normally, we just use M882 for both pistols and SMGs.

My experience w/ European commercial 9mm (such as the Fiocchi mentioned by Harold Mayo) is that it is loaded slightly hotter than US commercial counterparts. But this holds true for their other pistol calibers as well. Fiocchi .357 is noticeably snappier than most American produced rounds.
European sport shooters are used to generally higher velocities from their manufacturers...performance many of us can remember from Remington and Winchester loads of yesteryear.

I think Americans have just gotten used to lawyer-induced ammo which mitigates corporate liability for the manufacturers. Kinda like getting Americans hooked on dry-roasted coarse ground coffee (a coffee industry cost savings) vs. the rich fine ground that everyone else in the world drinks.

I've been firing NATO 9mm for years in other countries and out of most service pistols. I never once walked away from firing thinking, "Wow...hot ammo". I've fired significantly hotter commercial ammo (including 2000 fps THV) thru military weapons.

In answer to your original question, NATO 9mm is not hot +P. More like warm.

Hope this helps...

 

[Gabby Hayes]

Deleted. Posted at same time as above, with about the same info.

 

[gudel]

In answer to your original question, NATO 9mm is not hot +P. More like warm.

Mu USP can handle +P just fine. I've shot this Winchester NATO, it's in white box. Picked it up online somewhere. I didn't really notice huge difference compared to the WWB.
I've shot them through my USP and 92FS.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Harold is right about Fiocchi, it's definantly hot stuff. I have 1000 rounds of their 115 grain 9mm, and there is a big difference between it and my 124 grain +P Federal HST hollowpoints.

 

[Redhat]

M882 =124 grain

 

[hotpig]

Some of the NATO 9mm lying around my shop.

 

[Steve C]

Nato has a spec but every country loads their ammo differently. For example NATO spec ammo is 7.45gram's or 115gr bullet yet different NATO countries like the USA for example, load heavier bullets.

Here's a PDF from Janes Small Arms book that lists NATO spec along with loads from various countries.
9x19 NATO PDF

 

[jaysouth]

Once upon a time I had a truckload of M-882 with WCC00 and WCC02 headstamps. I never did pull and weigh a bullet. I assumed that it was 125 gr.

In a Sig 226 or BHP I could not get 1200 fps over a chrony. It ran 1180s with a Sd of over 30 fps in some lots. The accuracy was pretty bad too. WWB is at least as accurate. I would hate to think how much the gub pays for spec M-882. They should buy from Walmart and save us some money.

 

[Onmilo]

M882 is loade3d with 124 grain bullets, not 112 grain bullets.
I have shot Federal M882 and it isn't any hotter than my favorite German made GECO 123 grain full metal jacket ammunition.
Both rounds cross the chronograph screens at about 1190 feet per second at fifteen feet from the muzzle.
Most commercial US 9mm hardball will cross the screens around 150fps slower.

 

[ShelbyV8]

The NATO 9mm rounds were around long before any of the other 9mm ammo.
They are the standard for pressure, commericial ammo makers may load up or down from there and call it anything, standard, +P, and +P+. When I first started as a LEO that is about all that was around the first half way reliable HP was the Silvertip. That is why it was another 20 years before I was comfortable with 9MM.

 

[Chindo18Z]

"M882 =124 grain"

"M882 is loade3d with 124 grain bullets, not 112 grain bullets"

Wrong...sort of.

M882 has been manufactured in several weights. The US military standard was 112 grain. I only had the velocity/pressure data for that round handy when I posted. That data came from my older TM 43-0001-27, Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammunition (SC 1305), 20 DEC 1996.

Lake City currently procures the stuff from Federal and Olin-Winchester. Recent manufacture may very well be 124 grain. In today's environment, there are actually quite a few varieties of non-M882 Commercial Pack Substitute DODICs being procured and fired.

The older Olin was 112 grain. I've fired small mountains of it and been responsible for ordering it for annual unit Class V forecasts. There are still warehouse loads of it stockpiled (just as there are millions of stockpiled M193 5.56 rounds), although those stocks will get used up the longer our war lasts. As an example, the USMC fires over 17 million training/combat rounds of 9mm per year by itself; nevermind the Army, USAF, Navy, and Coast Guard requirements.

I'll have to dig out my current Defense Ammunition Center Yellowbook to check for 124 grain figures (or log onto my mil.domain DAC account).

But I really wasn't commenting on bullet weights, just answering the man's question.

IMHO, NATO Ball 9mm (not just M882) isn't especially hot. YMMV.

 

[g1726]

I have chronograph data from just a few days ago. I’ll have to pull a bullet to check the weight, but I assume its 124 gr.

Temp 65 F
Glock 17, 4.5” barrel
Measurement 10ft. from the muzzle
Velocity listed is average of 10 shots.

Win WB 115 gr. 1104 fps
M882 1174 fps
Speer Gold Dot 124 +P 1195 fps

I always thought it was hotter, but evidently not. The M882 was a Winchester overrun that I got from Sportsman’s Guide a while back. It is NATO headstamp.

So really, it's not that hot.

 

[Grunt]

Here's what I teach my classes about the M9 and the M882 ammunition.

Bullet weight is 124 grains
Muzzle Velocity is 1230 fps out of a 4.9" M9 barrel
Muzzle energy is 420 ft./lbs.

 

[Redhat]

Grunt,

What classes would those be?

That info's straight out of the FM

Redhat

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The NATO rounds I have shot were essentially the same as most factory ball rounds. I honestly couldn't tell a difference. Now the Winchester 127 grn +P+, that is some hot stuff!

 

[kokapelli]

Oops! Wrong thread!