How I dramatically improved my bench rifle shooting via ergonomic changes

Status
Not open for further replies.
poi,

. . . Did the op mention wind flags ?

Yes The Op (me) mentioned that he has not yet competently addressed wind management, but has successfully avoided needing that expertise by doing ammunition testing when the range first opens in the morning, and there IS no wind (almost ever)! :)

Naturally, wind management will be coming up in the training plan imminently (Now that I have the ammo performing pretty consistently). But the first priority has been to ensure that it is the OPERATOR's wind skill sets being tested then, not the ammo's consistency, nor the operator's shooting ergonomics, when I DO get to the wind management part of the training!

Jim G
 
Rick Grahamn (SRWRH) gave this to me a few years back, it only accounts for single point wind direction and doesn’t calculate speed but definitely got me on the right track to understanding where n why also how spin drift plays a part.
Good shooting to you
J
 

Attachments

  • 963820AC-F9C9-4F19-BCEE-6366F60E4841.jpeg
    963820AC-F9C9-4F19-BCEE-6366F60E4841.jpeg
    104.5 KB · Views: 12
Well, back in the day, when men hunted for food vs drove to the supermarket, there was some merit to that statement. One gun, one use, and they were very familiar with their setup, vs the fellow with a handful of play toys.

Yes. About half a century ago, when I was a young student working a summer job in an isolated 2-man camp in Northern Ontario (50 miles from anywhere, and no radio - just a floatplane visit once per week to deliver supplies), my senior partner, a mid-thirties aged Native Indian, announced that a bear was stalking our camp, attracted by the food, which had to be stored inside ourSINGLE tent. He said we needed to kill it that NIGHT because once we headed off to our worksite on a survey grid in daylight, and the camp was unprotected, the bear would tear the tent and everything else to pieces getting at the food and making the most of the rare dining experience. He said most bears were leery of approaching humans or their camps, but when hungry, all bets were off, especially when the humans were absent, and apparently bears had been having a rough time in terms of food that season.

I asked him how we could kill the bear, given that our employer's policies prohibited any firearms in the camps. He casually pulled a rifle that had been hidden inside his 4 foot heavy sleeping bag (Down, no compact lightweight synthetics back then). I was somewhat relieved, until I realized, to my horror, that it was a .22 rimfire.

I asked him if he was seriously saying we would shoot a bear, and kill it, with a .22 rimfire, at night. He told me he had done it before and I need not worry. Yeah sure.

We heard the bear moving outside later, reasonably close to the tent. The Indian picked up the loaded rifle and told me he needed me to carry the Coleman lantern and hold it high in front of me. We started walking towards the bear. I had serious misgivings, but hey, I was 17, he was experienced AND Native, and he seemed very calm about the whole thing.

As we walked forward, I eventually could see why the lantern was key - I saw a pair of eyes reflecting the light. The Indian had us stop walking, and told me to hold the lantern very still. He aimed and fired. The eyes disappeared. He told me we needed to walk forward towards where the bear had been, and to keep the lantern high and forward. As we walked, I began to see a dark shape on the ground, and he put a few more shots into it, but kept some ammo in the rifle. Then we came right up to the body. He had indeed killed it. I was very impressed given that it was with a .22 AND I couldn't even see much of anything but the eyes when he fired.

We then spent a less than delightful number of hours digging a hole for the carcass, as he told me that the carcass MUST be buried, and deep, so as to not attract any more animals. That was not fun, but we got it done.

No further bear trouble fortunately.

I have not exaggerated in the slightest. The Indian obviously had lots of relevant experience. (As further evidenced by his smuggling the rifle into the workplace camp in the first place)

So, yeah, I believe that a man with one gun can indeed become very proficient with it, and can surprise both an adversary and any observers.

Jim G
 
Last edited:
Rick Grahamn (SRWRH) gave this to me a few years back, it only accounts for single point wind direction and doesn’t calculate speed but definitely got me on the right track to understanding where n why also how spin drift plays a part.
Good shooting to you
J

Thank-you. And yes, I am aware of the fact that the "factor" depends on the angle and is NOT linear, but rather weighted by angle relative to the line of fire. I'll need to memorize the factors.

Jim G
 
“Wind flags”

90% of true Benchrest is reading the wind via flags/feel, most competitors have equipment that could win, and at least half don’t hurt themselves with poor gun handling.
 
At least the winning half :oops: I won’t even bother testing without at least one flag placed about a third of the distance from the target, that way if a shot leaks out of the group or if the groups are getting stretched out a bit I can access the damage and understand the what’s n why’s and not go home to kick the dog.
Another very important lesson in longe range shooting is knowing when NOT to shoot.

That should be on a Tee Shirt .
 
This isn’t the original I have printed, but it’s the same thing - it prints a little more compactly than the series of targets SPJ posted above. I keep one of these printed on my range databook pages, just as a quick reminder reference (for righthand twist barrels).

FA7F1663-BFA9-4A69-96A6-CD0AE097EB93.jpeg
 
This isn’t the original I have printed, but it’s the same thing - it prints a little more compactly than the series of targets SPJ posted above. I keep one of these printed on my range databook pages, just as a quick reminder reference (for righthand twist barrels).

View attachment 1049750

Thank-you! BUT, this beyond my current very shallow knowledge of wind management tools. Are there usage instructions for this chart somewhere?

Jim G
 
Funny that we rarely get a single point of wind as these charts are base on, rather the opposite is more likely so more flags can be a good thing or just add a layer of complexity depending on how much information a shooter can process now factor in spin drift and we can get overwhelmed briefly yet hopefully remind ourselves of the tendencies when reviewing a target or poi. When the stars align we clearly see the charts were accurate. ( or dang’ the old guy knew something after all)
 
Largely, it seems you went through what should be a relatively common process of stockfitting, but had to make some less-than-preferable concessions considering the stock you chose - and not so surprisingly, a well fit stock fits you better, and a stock which fits better, drives better, and a stock that drives better, shoots better.

Reading this over these few days, I’ve largely been frustrated that 1) it seemed like innovative exploration for you, when stockfitting is a relatively ancient practice, and 2) I recognize that the average Joe Igottarifle is unfortunately ignorant to its importance.
 
Are there usage instructions for this chart somewhere?
Wind in your face moves bullet impact down, wind away fro you moves bullet impact up. Wind to the left moves the bullet impact left, wind to the right moves bullet impact right.

Wind quartering away moves impact up and in the direction it is blowing right or left. Wind quartering in moves the impact down and in the direction of the wind.

The trick is figuring how much, especially when the wind is different at different yardages between you and the target.
 
Largely, it seems you went through what should be a relatively common process of stockfitting, but had to make some less-than-preferable concessions considering the stock you chose - and not so surprisingly, a well fit stock fits you better, and a stock which fits better, drives better, and a stock that drives better, shoots better.

Reading this over these few days, I’ve largely been frustrated that 1) it seemed like innovative exploration for you, when stockfitting is a relatively ancient practice, and 2) I recognize that the average Joe Igottarifle is unfortunately ignorant to its importance.

I did not have a choice of stock when ordering the rifle. I wanted a PGW specifically, and I could aford only the less costly M15 XRS model, which comes with only that stock. It apaprently works greta for most shooters who buy this rifle model. I have now learned that I apparently have wider and lower cheeks than most people, and that is what created the problem.

Sure, a custommade wood stock could be a solution, but:
- A custommade wood stock is quite costly
- A wood stock requires bedding while a metal chassis does not, and can be installed and removed multiple times without destroying the bedding surface
- To get the degree of adjustability in a wood stock versus a metal chassis would be both costlier AND not as good, since wood is weaker than metal and requires larger surfaces and cross-sections to be strong enough at every point, when there are multiple cutouts and inlaid bolt holes for adjustability.
- Wood stocks seem to be the current fashionable solution for Benchrest and F-Class, but i suspect this will change. For SOME classes of Benchrest, a rail chassis, or multiple front and rear adjustable support systems are identified as "the proper solution".
- Wood has to be protected much more than metal from mechanical damage and corrosive attack.

So, I do not want a wood stock. Period.

It is unfortunately apparently true that MDT and virtually all other chassis providers are not catering to Benchrest and F-Class. But again, I suspect that will change as the advantages of a clad-metal versus wood chassis structure become more evident. The advantages are pretty overwhelming:
- mechanical strength
- Easier maintenance
- Easier modification
- Greater range of potential adjustability (when chassis makers start to recognize that shorter LOP and lower comb heights are required by some shooters for some types of shooting)
- Wider options for weight adjsutment for different types of shooting and balance points (chekc out what chassis makers offer!!)
- Soft human interface surfaces (the cladding panels) over a robust metal structure that is hard to damage
- Choose your cladding shape, texture, rigidity, colour, etc for each individual cladding panel for optimal ergonomics and appearance

I also cannot call my current 0.25 MOA average group size at 200 yards a significant limitation. This is more than adequate precision for most long range shooting, and as I further refine my own skillsets, and in the future have access to a chassis with more LOP and comb height adjustability, I can anticipate even better results in calm wind conditions. Now wind management is obviously the next frontier for me, and a different chassis or stock won't make the difference THERE.

I have no regrets so far on choosing the M15 XRS with its clad metal chassis. :)

Jim G
 
Nobody said anything about a custom wood stock….

That's TECHNICALLY true, but how else would I get a shorter than typical LOP and a lower than apparently typically ADJUSTABLE comb?? And, while bedding might not be considered "custom", it sure as heck requires professional service and costs money!

Jim G
 
That's TECHNICALLY true, but how else would I get a shorter than typical LOP and a lower than apparently typically ADJUSTABLE comb?? And, while bedding might not be considered "custom", it sure as heck requires professional service and costs money!

Jim G

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy - Wild Bill Shakespeare

Many of us have managed to do what you’re claiming impossible.

Slow down, breathe, and open your eyes to the forest - stop staring so hard at the trees.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PWC
Who uses a wood stock in F-Class? Much less Benchrest. :thumbdown:
Although I see plenty of fiberglass with 4 inch forearms and adjustable buttstock rudders I still see fellas use wood stocks in F class and Benchrest and very high dollar at that . Shehane st1000, or KW precision ( Kieth Weil) comes to mind as well as deep creek tracker (DCT ) laminates
 

Attachments

  • CF1693A7-5E2A-4D39-AFAE-C16FF4A0CEE6.png
    CF1693A7-5E2A-4D39-AFAE-C16FF4A0CEE6.png
    395 KB · Views: 6
That's TECHNICALLY true, but how else would I get a shorter than typical LOP and a lower than apparently typically ADJUSTABLE comb?? And, while bedding might not be considered "custom", it sure as heck requires professional service and costs money!

Jim G
Some folks remove the butt plate to adjust lop, I have used extra tall scope rings to get a better sight picture. Whatever works - works
Here’s my piece of junk on a home made rest with a big fat rear bag, where i shoot the only thing that matters is small groups and nobody cares what the rifle looks like.
 

Attachments

  • 50682EC2-2F58-439F-A331-E8363FAF65B9.jpeg
    50682EC2-2F58-439F-A331-E8363FAF65B9.jpeg
    151.1 KB · Views: 11
Last edited:
Although I see plenty of fiberglass with 4 inch forearms and adjustable buttstock rudders I still see fellas use wood stocks in F class and Benchrest and very high dollar at that . Shehane st1000, or KW precision ( Kieth Weil) comes to mind as well as deep creek tracker (DCT ) laminates

Yes, my buddy who introduced me to more serious F-Class rifle shooting uses wood stocks, and yes, costly ones. I plan to tease him on his resistance to change. :)

Jim G
 
Yes, my buddy who introduced me to more serious F-Class rifle shooting uses wood stocks, and yes, costly ones. I plan to tease him on his resistance to change. :)

Jim G
For 300 yard F class shooting I would say your equipment is fine for now, it’s load tuning and wind reading. I don’t recall the X ring size but to be competitive you need mid to high 190’s score with a high teens x count.
 
great thread. its' good to document your journey. i occasionally look back at my posts from two decades ago and am reminded of many things i've learned along the way and how i learned them, and some i used to know but have forgotten. you may look back at this 10 years from now and realize how much further you've come. since it's a journey, i won't nitpick your statements in the OP, but i'd encourage you to keep in mind that a lot of people achieve those results under field conditions. in other words, some things like free recoil, are the easy way and work great in some circumstances but not others. you CAN learn to shoot that well laying on uneven ground with your shoulder pushing into the gun and your harris bipod that lightweight bag, and you'll probably find that far more satisfying when you get tired of shooting groups.

Reading this over these few days, I’ve largely been frustrated that 1) it seemed like innovative exploration for you, when stockfitting is a relatively ancient practice, and 2) I recognize that the average Joe Igottarifle is unfortunately ignorant to its importance.

i've said a few times over the years how surprised i am that the trap and skeet folks are obsessed with fitting stocks to help hit a 3" clay at 30' and rifle guys MIGHT duct tape a mousepad to their stock but mostly don't change anything as they try to hit sub MOA targets out to 1000 yards. It's mind boggling. I've shot fclass with a factory rem700 stock. it can be done but it sure doesn't make it easy. Properly adjusting the scope and stock (and trigger if you've got a movable shoe) makes things soooo much easier.
 
great thread. its' good to document your journey. i occasionally look back at my posts from two decades ago and am reminded of many things i've learned along the way and how i learned them, and some i used to know but have forgotten. you may look back at this 10 years from now and realize how much further you've come. since it's a journey, i won't nitpick your statements in the OP, but i'd encourage you to keep in mind that a lot of people achieve those results under field conditions. in other words, some things like free recoil, are the easy way and work great in some circumstances but not others. you CAN learn to shoot that well laying on uneven ground with your shoulder pushing into the gun and your harris bipod that lightweight bag, and you'll probably find that far more satisfying when you get tired of shooting groups.



i've said a few times over the years how surprised i am that the trap and skeet folks are obsessed with fitting stocks to help hit a 3" clay at 30' and rifle guys MIGHT duct tape a mousepad to their stock but mostly don't change anything as they try to hit sub MOA targets out to 1000 yards. It's mind boggling. I've shot fclass with a factory rem700 stock. it can be done but it sure doesn't make it easy. Properly adjusting the scope and stock (and trigger if you've got a movable shoe) makes things soooo much easier.

Good commentary and advice! Thank-you! I realize that free recoil is not universally applicable, but it does give me the most consistent results right now for testing the ammunition as "purely" as I can, especially given my relatively undeveloped rifle skills.

Jim G
 
Although I see plenty of fiberglass with 4 inch forearms and adjustable buttstock rudders I still see fellas use wood stocks in F class and Benchrest and very high dollar at that . Shehane st1000, or KW precision ( Kieth Weil) comes to mind as well as deep creek tracker (DCT ) laminates
Cool, not exactly my definition of wood though. :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top