How I Perceive the AR-15

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You're gonna be sniping at people in a SHTF scenario? Not likely. Unless you're a BG.
What is more likely is defending yourself in your home with the weapon of your choice, or your CCW weapon while you are out and about.
Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards? Not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I am talking about what is likely...
I must have expressed myself poorly, what I was trying to say is that there is no advantage of an AR style weapon over a hunting rifle if the SHTF, and I prefer a standard hunting rifle over the tactical weapon. My Remington cost about half of what an AR style weapon cost and is far more accurate at any range and has more knockdown power. My 79 year old Mosin Nagant 91/30 is more accurate than most AR clones and at any range. I also have a cache of ten handguns from 22 cal to .45 cal, 6 rifles from .22 to .308, 4 shotguns and about 1.5 tons of ammo to feed them. My immediate family is well trained in the use of all the weapons in the gun locker JIC the SHTF. Yes, I believe I am prepared to ward off the bad guy from several yards to several hundred yards if need be.
 
I think bolt guns are a poor choice for all purpose SHTF weapons, personally. Especially since most self defense scenarios will likely be at fairly close range. Slow fire, and they aren't much more accurate than an AR15 (if at all). A person with an AR15 can pour half a mag into an attacker before most people can take more than one shot with a bolt gun. If your Mosin is more accurate than most AR15's, you have a better one than most, too. I doubt it translates all that much under high stress at close range though.
 
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it. Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going.
This misconception keeps rearing its head. Civilians are not limited to FMJ. With civilian JHP's, .223/5.56 penetrates >>LESS<< in building materials, and retains less lethality on the other side, than handgun JHP's do.

And given that civilian AR-type carbines shooting civilian JHP's are a very workable option as a civilian defensive weapon, putting a light on there is a Good Thing from a Rule Four standpoint.
 
Hee, hee, I like how's there's FIVE different lights on that gun.....


Well, as people have said, you just don't like the rifle type, and that's fine and doesn't necessarily need to change. However, it may very well help you to come to appreciate them if your thinking were to come around to understanding the need or want in this or that particular accessory. Or, it may not matter to you.

Particularly, if you're primarily a hunter, and not .mil/ LEO (an 'operator' or wanna-be 'operator' :) ), then you may come to realize that SOME of these gadgets and the rifle style itself in general are not bad choices for hunting; in fact, they can even come in handy for certain hunting scenarios.

Generally, although I try to keep the rifles as small and light as humanly possible (unless they're a pure range toy), for what it's worth, I have some gadgets on this style of rifle for what I perceive to be GOOD reason, particularly:

1. Replacement (better) grip. The A2 style sucks nards, and an ERGO is infinitely better.

2. "Tac-latch" - small, light, and makes it a lot easy to grab that charging handle and rack it - my only lament here is that they don't make a "DOUBLE tac-latch" where there's big ears on both sides - of course they will *eventually* - I'm always ahead of the curve on these things - but I want one NOW!

3. Optical sight. I'm a big fan of these, and they have their place, for at least 4 reasons: First, a 1x ESD is plain quicker than lining up three planes for fast and furious CQB type shooting. Second, those of us with bad eyes can get a blurred out front or rear and not see the target as well, at ANY range. Third, if shooting at medium or long range, even those with GOOD eyes can benefit from a *magnified* sight, and irons ain't magnified. Finally, the light that an optics gathers can add a good 15-20 minutes to 'shootin time' / 'huntin time' at both ends of the day, at dusk and dawn. Particularly useful for hunting.

4. A 'tactical' sling (1 point, 2 point, etc.). These are good not only for 'operators' on guard duty, but also for hunters, in both having a carry strap for general carry, but also for stalking-hunting where the rifle can always be at the "low-ready" while stalking for hours, without unduly tiring your arms out. Just the other day, I stalked through the woods for almost two hours straight looking for deer with my DPMS and without that 1-point sling, my arms would have been mondo tired (e.g. carrying a standard turnbolt), and I would have had to rest a lot more often.

5. A light of some sort. Obviously this is good for home defense and .mil/police type situations, but again, also potentially for hunting. In some states, it's LEGAL to hunt coyotes and/or piggies with lights.

6. A BUIS for your optical sight (whether co-witnessed or not). Meh, I can take or leave these generally, but overall not a horrible idea if they don't add too much weight. I have a BUIS on only one EBR type. Here's my take on them: I don't do optical sights that take batteries (at least not on 'real' or 'serious' guns). *Co-Witnessed* BUIS's are useful for 1x optics that rely on batteries, so if the batteries go out, you're still in business in a matter of mili-seconds. Since I don't rely on batteries, even for 1x optical sights (fiber optic or standard reticle only), I certainly don't need a co-witnessed BUIS. If you buy a quality optic and it doesn't use batteries, the chances of it going TU are slim to none. BUT, having said that, having a BUIS stored separately (in your pack), just in case you drop your rifle down a steep onto a rock on the optic, to slap on the top rail, is certainly not a terrible idea. But keep them in your pack, not living on the rifle adding weight to what you have to carry and maneuver with your arms. Use a QD mount for the optic, whether 1x or otherwise, and do a quick field swap in the very unlikely event your optical sight goes TU. Another reason I don't like a co-witnessed BUIS is because iron sights are a standardized fixed height, which is too high for my taste -higher than I get my optics, even on an AR15. So they wouldn't co-witness anyway without me raising my optical sight to a place I don't want it to be. Yet another reason I'm not a huge fan of co-witnessed BUIS's is because I AM a fan of magnified optics - usually not dialing down below 2, 1.65, or 1.5, and BUIS's just flat out don't work with anything but a 1 or maybe 1.25 power.

7. Finally, forward grip. I don't really like or want a forward grip on a serious gun *for the sake of having a different grip* for shooting while standing - the standard horizontal handguard is fine for that. But if you're ambush hunting, and holding a rifle in your lap, it can tend to 'slip down' toward the ground over time and it's a pain keeping it in place and trying to keep perfectly still. A forward grip, or at least a significant protrusion of some sort from the bottom of the front of the stock/handguard area, gives your off-hand something to grab onto, to hold the rifle into your body stabily without tiring you out over the long haul.

8. Finally, as to the platform itself in general: Let's face it - a pistol grip for the shooting hand is just flat-out more comfortable and ergo thana "standard" rifle stock grip, such as on a standard turnbolt. Secondly, an AR15 is both *fairly* light and semi-auto, both of which can be useful for hunting and 'operators' alike. Well, they're light FOR a semi-auto, if you don't go in for HBARs and keep your accessories minimal and light. The safety is both quiet and easy to manipulate. Quieter than a Remington 700, for example.

You'll notice that bipod is NOT in the list. Bipods (to me) are little more than toys, as adding a LOT of weight, with very little to no actual benefit. Field expedient rests, such as a tree trunk, tree limb, rock, fallen tree, etc., are not only just as sturdy or even sturdier than a bipod, they are, most importantly, higher up, getting you above the ambient flora / brush / grass. I'd much rather have one of those aluminum adjustable bipod or monopod / walking stick combos, that come up to a max of anywhere from 24" to 60", for actual use from a chair, hillside, or while standing.

Lasers are also not in the list. They are fun toys, but again, I ain't gonna rely on anything using batteries myself - YMMV. It's also hard or impossible to see them in bright light.

Obviously, the size and weight of the gadgets put on needs to be seriously considered. Optical sights can vary widely in weight once you get up to magnified ones. You've just gotta look at the rifle's purpose, versus what it weighs now, versus what's the maximum acceptable weight, versus the need for the gadget in question, versus the various feature-to-weight ratios of the commercial offerings of the gadget type.
 
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......"I'll even go so far as to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it."......

Enjoy your rights...citizen.

don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.
 
Bovice said:
don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.

Are you just here to troll? You are being insulting to other members but still haven't bothered to explain your reasoning or actually engage in a discussion about your claims.

I notice you ignored every one of the people who took the time to address you seriously and politely. Why is that?
*
 
......"I'll even go so far as to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it."......

Enjoy your rights...citizen.

don't get your panties in a wad. You know it's true. My statement stands.

What a bunch of jabberwocky.


How do you propose that we "civilians" illuminate the area in front of us if the light isn't on the AR-15? Maybe holding the rifle in one hand and the flashlight in the other? :scrutiny:

Get real.
 
Bovice, do you have a picture of your AR so we will get an idea of how to set one up?
 
I would think flashlights carry the same caveat as tracers...

They work both ways. :(

Dunno. But I DO hope none of you ever have to find out if you really did need it.
 
I would think flashlights carry the same caveat as tracers...

They work both ways.

I feel the same way. But, I think they would be good for a ranch gun to help ward of predators of outside pets or farm animals.

However, inside your home - even if it is *your* home: don't go looking for trouble, especially if trouble itself has already come looking for you.
 
If your flashlight is bright enough like most SureFires are all you give away is your general direction all the which would be given away indoors anyways. Plus you blind the heck out of the intruder and can identify the threat.
 
However, inside your home - even if it is *your* home: don't go looking for trouble, especially if trouble itself has already come looking for you.
Bad idea what about the rest of your family down the hall from your safe location?
 
If your flashlight is bright enough like most SureFires are all you give away is your general direction all the which would be given away indoors anyways. Plus you blind the heck out of the intruder and can identify the threat.
Exactly, not to mention the non-HD type uses such as coyotes, opossums, raccoons, feral hogs (where legal), et al...because you can't (or shouldn't) shoot what you can't see.

:)
 
I doubt it translates all that much under high stress at close range though.
I spent several tours in RVN and was armed with the M16 and a M16equipped with the M203 but carried a shotgun on most patrols.
IMO, I have semi auto and pump shotguns that will work as good or better at close range.
 
Bovice said:
I'll even go as far to say that civilian owners have no business putting a flashlight on it. Sure, sure, you say its for home defense. But shooting a rifle of that caliber inside your home is not smart. It's going to poke a hole in just about anything it encounters and keep on going

Wow.

Pretty much demonstrates lack of knowledge on just about everything from the meaning of the Second Amendment, to the proper way to use a firearm, to an understanding of ammunition selection and bullet design.
 
I have reread every tread on "How I perceive the AR".

Most of the treads address the AR15 as a needed weapon if the SHTF but then contradict themselves by quotes such as; "Can you really foresee many scenarios where you will be taking shots at people past 25 yards?" Then what is the need for an AR clone ? IMO, I have semi auto and pump shotguns that will work better at close range.

One tread stressed the accuracy of the AR clones. As far as more accurate weapons my 700 VTR .308, 91/30/, Ruger 44, Remington 7400 30-06 are more accurate than the AR clones and with greater knockdown power.

Another tread stated that the very loud report from the .308 was a negative. IMO, not anymore than the report of an AR clone .223.

Another tread stated that if the SHTF most conflicts would be slow fire. Then why the need of a semi auto AR clone.

Admit it guys, as my wife says: "It is a Man's Thing".

I prefer to place the protection of my family with tried and true reliable weapons if the fesses ever hits the fan and not with some untested “kit” assembled from parts produced by various manufacturers…….As I have stated "I have no need for an AR style weapon" and the comments on "How I preceive the AR" have not made me change my mind.
 
chuckusaret, I agree that there IS a valid argument for a non-semi-auto; opting instead for a manual repeater like a turnbolt, pump or levergun, for self-defense. No matter how reliable a semi is - even the most reliable semi-auto in the world - it is STILL going to be, on average, however so slightly, LESS reliable than a properly tuned levergun or pump, or even better, a turnbolt, when used with the right ammo. The chance of a malfunction in a really good semi may be one in 100,000, but you may just get that one when you really need the rifle. The chance of a turnbolt malfunctioning by comparison, may be 1 in 500,000 for example. There's something to be said for simplicity and reliability. Although I keep a shotgun and handgun at the ready for home defense, not a rifle - if I were to use a rifle instead, I still consider the perfect home defense rifle (for MY realistic threat level) to be something like a 16" .45 Colt Win 92 type levergun - the AR15 in 5.56x45 is certainly not a bad choice, but I'd take the levergun I believe, due to the sheer reliability of it, not to mention lower noise levels, lower recoil, less chance of gettin trigger-happy on the aggressor, changing the scenario from self-defense to murder, less chance of having a multi-shot ND under an adrenaline rush, simplicity, etc. Not to mention that I don't like leaving expensive guns like AR15s out of the safe, and my home defense guns usually stay out, for better or worse.
 
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Nothing particularly wrong with an AR, but the emotion, general misinformation and hype make me want to go off and :barf: anytime one of these threads shows up. Enough.

Let's wait until 2011 for any more of this, okay?

:D:D:D
 
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