How important is fire protection in a gun safe?

[lebowski]

I've been in the market for a gun safe, been researching for the last month or so and am nearing a decision. I have basically narrowed it down to the AMSEC BF or the Sturdy Safe, the latter I'm considering either with or without fire protection.


Unfortunately, the spot in my home where I'd like to place the safe is accessed through a narrow (27") doorway, so I'm somewhat limited in the safe size I can get through there. As a result, while I initially set out to purcahase a gun safe that offers fire protection, I'm starting to wonder if I would be better off getting a safe without fire protection, because the Sturdy Safe in that configuration offers more interior space.

I am NOT looking for an argument as to which of these two safe makes/models is "better" - there are a number of safe threads out there and I've used the search feature and read most of them. In reading such threads, I've noticed a number of comments along the lines of "yes such and such safe offers fire protection - but you won't want your guns after a fire anyway due to all of the moisture damage". Is this true? If so, why bother with a fire safe? Kind of makes me think it makes sense to get the non fire-lined safe and have the extra space.

FWIW, I plan to use this primarily for its intended purpose - that is, as a gun safe. I may have a few other items in there, but for the most part my important documents and such will be stored in a bank safe deposit box. I also live in a suburban environment, in a concrete block house (w/ some wood framing in the floors/crawl space and the attic), about a mile from a fire station, if that helps.

So what do you guys think, am I better off skipping the fire protection in favor of more space and just relying on my homeowners insurance in the event of a fire?

 

[CoRoMo]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.
I can always tap into my homeowner's insurance and NRA insurance to replace them after a fire, but I really just want to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.
If they burn, okay.
If they get stolen by a burlar, or "borrowed without permission" by an unsupervised child, not at all okay.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I'm in line with CoRoMo. The safe I have -is- a fire safe ... but only because that is what the guy was selling (got it 2nd hand).

The other "issue" with a fire safe is that you can't bolt it to a wall, has to be bolted to the floor. That can limit where you can put it.

 

[skipsan]

I have the AmSec BF 30 (I think) and am very happy with it. That said, I'd have to agree that my primary concern is theft protection with the fire protection being secondary. HOWEVER, I believe that the fire protection insulation, whatever the material is, represents a large portion of the safe's weight--weight being a portion of the safe's anti-theft features. Seems to me that the AmSec weighed over 800 lbs empty. The fire protection has a secondary benefit, therefore, in making the safe heavier and bulkier and therefore harder to steal.

FWIW, these thngs we're calling "safes" are really Residential Security Containers as defined by Underwriters Laboratories. Real "safes" as defined by UL are a whole lot more money.

 

[lebowski]

Yes, I understand the whole RSC vs. safe definition. I looked at Graffunders and Browns - I'd love to get either, but given the value of my gun collection it's hard to justify the cost, plus I worry about the weight on my floors, plus I'd rather plow the cost savings into other security upgrades on my house.

As for the weight - it will be bolted to the floor regardless of how much it weighs. The Sturdy configured as I want is 800 lbs w/o fire protection or ~950-1000 w/ it, the AMSEC BF6030 is 976lbs.

 

[TheDriver]

Depending on where you live, you are possibly far more likely to undergo a fire than a burglary. Just something to think about. A security/safe expert laid this out on a great safe/firearm storage thread on Kim Du Toit's website a couple (?) years ago.

 

[Zundfolge]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.

I'm going to take the opposite stance.

A safe isn't going to protect your guns from theft by a determined thief (they'll just steal or destroy your expensive safe thus increasing your loss). A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.


As far as I'm concerned a gun safe is good for keeping small hands from accessing your guns and maybe protecting them from fire. For everything else there's insurance.

 

[earlthegoat2]

The standard safe such as a Liberty will not stand up to a full scale fire even though they have it advertised to stand up to this and that (insert random heat and time) because I have seen safes taken out of burned buildings that are totally FUBAR. The safe companies will replace the safe sometimes under warranty but I think there is a provision about the items inside.

Go for security. The fire protection is just a sales pitch.

 

[lebowski]

A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.

I thought about adding a solid core door with a deadbolt to the closet in my home office. Would keep kids and smash and grab criminals out ... but it can't provide as much burglary protection as a safe (or the RSCs we're discussing here).

I may add the door/lock to the closet anyway, just for additional locked up space. Would be a good place to put ammo and other bulky stuff that I don't want taking up all the room in my safe/RSC.

 

[winston smith]

More likely to have a fire. BUT...how much protection will a safe give your guns? They keep the interior at 350 degrees for 1-2 hours. How will your gun be if baked in an oven for 2 hours? The wood will be ruined at a minimum. If you can put it lower in the house, but not where water can submerge it, that reduces the chance of damage.

Remember, its all probibilities.

I thought puting a water tank on top of the safe- like a truck aux. tank with (steam)tubes from near the top interior of the tank to the safe's sides, would help to keep the temp. down.

How long does it take for a house fire to boil 70 gal.?

 

[Logos]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

 

[lebowski]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

I know - the answers are never, never, and never.

A lot of people tout this statistic that supposedly a fire is more likely than burglary - I wonder where that stat comes from and I highly suspect it's an internet myth. I can't remember a house in my neighborhood burning down. On the other hand, I can go on my local PD website and do "crime mapping" and a number of houses (even in the "nice areas" of town) are broken into every month. Granted, many of these break-ins are crimes of opportunity (homeowner left door unlocked, bike stolen out of open garage etc.) but many are not, and it does lead me to suspect that burglary is far more likely than fire. This is especially the case if you have high value items (such as guns) lying around. Fires are random, they don't target homes with gun or jewelry collections, burglars do.

 

[Logos]

Fires are random, they don't target homes with gun or jewelry collections, burglars do.

Exactly.

Which is why other levels of security can be incredibly important.....starting with looking and acting like someone with nothing much to steal......especially guns.

No NRA signs, no 2nd Amendment bumper stickers, no "Don't worry about the dog, beware the owner" signs with big gun muzzles on your door.

The word quickly gets around if a crew unloads a huge safe at your house.

That can't be good.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.
I can always tap into my homeowner's insurance and NRA insurance to replace them after a fire, but I really just want to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.
If they burn, okay.
If they get stolen by a burlar, or "borrowed without permission" by an unsupervised child, not at all okay.

+1

I have enough insure to cover fire damage. Mostly have a safe so others (family, friends, burglers) don't have unauthroized access and don't shoot themselves, others, of me.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Given that you're so close to the fire station, I think you're OK without fire protection, as long as nothing in your collection is irreplaceable.

A safe isn't going to protect your guns from theft by a determined thief (they'll just steal or destroy your expensive safe thus increasing your loss). A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.

The "Safes" he is looking at are well above the common chain-store RSCs. I completely disagree that a locked closet or cheap metal cabinet is comparable. I have a Sturdy and wanted to drill my own mounting holes to bolt it down - destroyed two quality TiN bits in the process, despite using cutting fluid and taking breaks to let the bit cool down. An amateur won't be getting in. If a true professional has targeted you and brings appropriate tools, you're out of luck even with a TL-15.

I have a Sturdy Safe and am very happy with it. Of course the Amsec should also be a top quality safe/RSC as well.

 

[lebowski]

Exactly.

Which is why other levels of security can be incredibly important.....starting with looking and acting like someone with nothing much to steal......especially guns.

No NRA signs, no 2nd Amendment bumper stickers, no "Don't worry about the dog, beware the owner" signs with big gun muzzles on your door.

The word quickly gets around if a crew unloads a huge safe at your house.

That can't be good.

I don't do any of that stuff to blatantly advertise I am a gun owner, but still, you never know word can get around.

I agree unloading a safe at my house in draws attention, but it's something I'll only have to do once and I'll be as discreet as possible. Beats the alternative of not having the guns locked up, IMO.

 

[lebowski]

Given that you're so close to the fire station, I think you're OK without fire protection, as long as nothing in your collection is irreplaceable.



The "Safes" he is looking at are well above the common chain-store RSCs. I completely disagree that a locked closet or cheap metal cabinet is comparable. I have a Sturdy and wanted to drill my own mounting holes to bolt it down - destroyed two quality TiN bits in the process, despite using cutting fluid and taking breaks to let the bit cool down. An amateur won't be getting in. If a true professional has targeted you and brings appropriate tools, you're out of luck even with a TL-15.

I have a Sturdy Safe and am very happy with it. Of course the Amsec should also be a top quality safe/RSC as well.

I agree with you. I briefly considered the locked closet idea, but gave up on it pretty quickly as it would be totally unrealistic to fortify that closet so that it's anything close to the AMSEC or the Sturdy.

Good to hear you had a hard time drilling through it. I really wish there was some site that actually tested these things, breaking into them and reporting how difficult it is.

 

[BMF500]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

Now ask yourself, "If my house does burn down, do I want to be able to salvage what was in the safe or collect the insurance check?"

 

[a1abdj]

There are a few aspects that tend to get glossed over a bit with the AMSECs when being compared with other safes. These aspects should be considered, as they are not the same between the AMSECs and most of their competition.

First, the AMSEC is using a fill material between two steel walls for insulation. This fill material is not similar to the gypsum board that most other manufacturers use, and is not similar to the fiberglass or other odd insulation that a few other manufacturers use. The material is engineered to be used in safes as a fire insulation, and is used in smaller versions of the BF series which do carry a UL fire rating. If fire protection is important to you, the AMSEC and Graffunders are going to be best options. There is no UL rated fire safe on the market using gypsum board or fiberglass insulation as their primary insulator.

Second, this fill material goes beyond offering fire protection. This fill material also adds burglary resistance to the safe by making the walls of the safe stiff. The weakest part of most safes are its walls, and the biggest weakness of most gun safe walls are the fact that they will flex. None of the other insulations that other manufacturers use would be useful in the event of a brute force burglary.

 

[twofifty]

Lebowski, you could hire a carpenter or mason to widen the 27" door opening, then get a wider safe in there.

This would also be a good time to strengthen the door frame, & install a solid core door with heavy hinges & lock. This will add another layer to defeat the thieves.

 

[lebowski]

Lebowski, you could hire a carpenter or mason to widen the 27" door opening, then get a wider safe in there.

This would also be a good time to strengthen the door frame, & install a solid core door with heavy hinges & lock. This will add another layer to defeat the thieves.

Thanks for the suggestion ... due to the layout of the house, it's probably not an option. But I will think about upgrading the door and lock to the office at some point.

 

[Flyboy73]

Unfortunately, the spot in my home where I'd like to place the safe is accessed through a narrow (27") doorway, so I'm somewhat limited in the safe size I can get through there.

Get a Zanotti Safe. They ship them in pieces and you assemble them in the spot you want the safe.

I had a problem with a big safe not being able to make a 90 degree turn in my basement. You can get up to a 52 gun safe. They are not cheap and there is a 3 months wait, since they build them for each order. They are rated 20 min for 1200 deg.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/

Brion

 

[suemarkp]

Instead of thinking of the closet as the "safe", think of it as the fire protection. Solid core door perhaps with high temp weather stripping, two layers of sheet rock on the inside, and perhaps some fire resistant insulation in the stud cavity.

Build it like a 1 Hr fire wall between adjoining condos. Also think about above and below as fire walls.

But if the fire is bad enough, the closet will burn down and the safe will be cooked, fire resistant or not. If you have a fire and the fire department puts it out, what is all the water going to do to the safe?

 

[leadcounsel]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

Sorry, flawed logic.

You could also ask how many times you were in a serious car accident or saw one? Why wear a seatbelt?

How many times have you been threatened with deadly force? Why take precautions like carrying a gun?

How many times have you gotten bitten by ticks? Why wear long socks and use spray?

And on and on and on...

Safes are generally once-in-a-lifetime purchases for most people, and they are a PITA to ship, move, etc. You really want to do it as few times as necessary. Averaged out over 30 years, the cost difference between fire resistance and non is less than a nickel a day.

You can keep more than firearms in there - jewelry, documents, photos, etc.
And considering that you keep irreplacable and replacable valuables in your safe, why not add fire resistance?

 

[hpluseleven]

I've been lurking on this site for a while, just registered so I can post.

I have had a house fire. Fortunately I didn't have any family heirloom type guns at that time (my grandfather has since passed away and I have a few of his guns) and that has played into my attitude on this as well:

The safe aspect - the idea is to make things hard enough for the burglar that they pass your safe over. Given enough time and motivation they'll get into any safe. Along those lines - some fire protection is better than none.

I strongly suspect that had my guns been in the safe I have now (Liberty) when my house burned, I could have pulled them out and gone shooting the next day. As it was, they weren't damaged beyong repair (stored in a closet on the other side of the house from the christmas tree that burned - yes, it really happens) I was fortunate that the house didn't burn to the ground. Just like there are burglars with varying levels of time and motivation, there are fires with varying levels of time and heat.

Now that I have some guns that hold some family value, I'd rather they be in a safe so there's a much better chance that the guns can at least be repaired after a fire vs tossing out some charred remains.

Bottom line - I don't want my buddies getting into my guns when we're having a BBQ and getting drunk and I don't want them to burn when my drunk buddies knock over the smoker and light the house on fire. (ok, that's a contrived scenario, but you get the point) There's value to both the limiting access and fire protection aspects of having a safe.

PS: My house that burned was less a mile from the fire station as well.

FWIW, now that I have it, I store my passport/birth certificate/etc/etc/etc in my safe. Sure, there are fires that can burn hot enough and long enough to defeat the safe, but the safe isn't supposed to be perfect, just better than nothing.