How important is fire protection in a gun safe?

[scythefwd]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

Now that you ask... about 5 years ago it burnt to the ground. Second fire in 20 years in that house. It burnt down after I left "home". Had a house "fire" a couple of years ago due to lightning strike killing a transformer on one of my phones, which heated up and was starting to smoke (imagine if I hadn't been home and anal retentive about locating the smell of ozone, the smell of fried electronics). I got to that one before any real damage could start. So that would be 3 fires, all could have take the house down in less than 25 years.
I have seen lightning strike my house from the inside (saw a huge flash right at ceiling level while I was in the house) during a lightning storm.

I guess fire is a worry to me

Leadcousel,
About the burglery, had that one happen once.
About the ticks issue brought up later... more times than I can count.
The serious car wreck... have lost 4 relatives to car wrecks, see flipped cars a couple times a year, see cars totaled almost everyday going to work (had two totaled myself... one was dodging debris and failing.. the other I was Tboned). Aunt was hit by a semi that didn't touch the brakes while in a traffic jam.
Threatened with deadly force... do the threats to my father about driveby's count since I was living in the house? We had some real pieces of work "visit" us when he crossed the union lines. Bought more than one windshield and every car had new tires by the end.

Heck folks, yall just made me realize something... I should never leave my house again the way my life is working out Nah... gotta pay for diapers somehow )

 

[Dragracer_Art]

There is no such thing as a fireproof safe.

I had a customer give me about 10 guns that were in his very expensive "Fireproof" safe when his home burned to the ground. I'm pretty sure he said it was a Liberty safe.

I was able to salvage only the receiver of a 10/22 and that's it. Every gun was a scorched, burnt pile of melted junk or charred wood. The 870, the Charles Daly shotgun, the Browning .308 levergun, etc... they were all BARELY recognizable as firearms. Anything made of steel was a rusty and seized mess due to the huge amount of water and wet ash that was leftover when the fire was out.

I cut the rest of them up and scrapped them.

The only thing a safe will do is keep out crooks.

 

[ElToro]

my next door neighbors garage caught fire 2 weeks after i moved in. a safe in teh garage wold have been

im out of room in the current "RSC" (i like that term !) but for my next safe, my wife has signed off on one of those safes that lays down and has cushions on it and looks like afurniture. i will put it in the front room by the door and it will fit right in. the safe door opens like a coffin. i think i can get many long guns in there.

mostly concerned about my 15 month getting into unaithorized areas. residential theft less so. my neighborhood is very safe and quiet and wife stays home during the day with the kid, but were not here 24/7.

 

[divemedic]

As a firefighter:

The overwhelming majority of house fires do not "burn your house down" but instead just burn portions of it. A fire safe helps protect what is inside from the fire for a period of time. Just like there are no "bullet proof" vests or "water proof" watches in our litigious society, there are no "fire proof" safes. That is where the ratings come from.

This isn't a choice between fire and thief protection, this is a choice of whether or not you want fire protection. I make my living from the disasters that others go through, and my advice to you is take the fire protection.

When you install the guts, just be sure that the guns are not right on the floor of the safe. 6 inches or so, and they should stay dry from any firefighting water that will pool on the floor.

 

[lebowski]

There are a few aspects that tend to get glossed over a bit with the AMSECs when being compared with other safes. These aspects should be considered, as they are not the same between the AMSECs and most of their competition.

First, the AMSEC is using a fill material between two steel walls for insulation. This fill material is not similar to the gypsum board that most other manufacturers use, and is not similar to the fiberglass or other odd insulation that a few other manufacturers use. The material is engineered to be used in safes as a fire insulation, and is used in smaller versions of the BF series which do carry a UL fire rating. If fire protection is important to you, the AMSEC and Graffunders are going to be best options. There is no UL rated fire safe on the market using gypsum board or fiberglass insulation as their primary insulator.

Second, this fill material goes beyond offering fire protection. This fill material also adds burglary resistance to the safe by making the walls of the safe stiff. The weakest part of most safes are its walls, and the biggest weakness of most gun safe walls are the fact that they will flex. None of the other insulations that other manufacturers use would be useful in the event of a brute force burglary.

Thanks Frank, helpful as always.

I do realize the drylight in the AMSEC adds a rigid backing to the steel. For this thread, I'm really just focused on the protection from an actual fire.

It was actually some of your quotes that got me wondering about the usefulness, from another thread you commented:

Secondly, don't count on your gun safe to protect its contents from a fire, regardless of what type of fire barrier it uses.

I'm the first person to admit that gun safes won't protect their contents in a fire

Here's the problem with gun safes being fireproof. The best insulations on fireproof safes are moisture bearing. The moisture in these insulations will cause above average humidity issues within the safe. In order to protect the guns, you have to use insulations that do not contain as much moisture. As such, it reduces the ability to protect against fire.

Of course, most gun safes get steam inside of them in a fire, and it's not coming from the insulation. It's coming from the water being sprayed on the fire. The fire has to get pretty close to the safe before the seals swell, and the steam and other chemicals typically enter the safe before that happens.

Some history and opinion:

Gun safes originally had no fireproofing. They were simply steel boxes with gun racks on the inside.

At some point, manufacturers realized that although the male wanted the safe, a purchase of that size had to be approved by a female. In order to make the sale of the safe more appealing to the female, the figured they had to convince her it was useful for her as well.

Voila! Your multipurpose residential vault was born. Look at your catalogs, and pay close attention to the photos of what is being stored in the safes. A few guns...and a lot of wedding albums, silverware, and women's jewelry.

For a gun safe, it's [fire proofing] a waste of money, unless you're buying a high end unit. The Graffunders are built quite a bit nicer than your average gun safe, but they also have a price tag that goes along with that quality.

I've always said that gun safes are for guns. Anything else you're looking to protect needs to go into something specifically designed for that task.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=284466&highlight=sturdy+safe


Sorry for the long list of quotes, but there was a lot there. Those last two quotes from you really get to the gist of my question - it sounds like fireproofing was added as a gimmick to convince wives to approve of the safe/RSC purchase. In my case, there's no wife to approve the purchase, and it'll mostly be just guns in the safe (maybe a few other items like my passport and a watch or two, but high importance or irreplaceable documents will be at the bank safe deposit box). Your quotes make me think, the fireproofing seems to be a low concern for a gun safe if the moisture will ruin the guns anyway.

 

[a1abdj]

Sorry for the long list of quotes, but there was a lot there. Those last two quotes from you really get to the gist of my question - it sounds like fireproofing was added as a gimmick to convince wives to approve of the safe/RSC purchase. In my case, there's no wife to approve the purchase, and it'll mostly be just guns in the safe (maybe a few other items like my passport and a watch or two, but high importance or irreplaceable documents will be at the bank safe deposit box). Your quotes make me think, the fireproofing seems to be a low concern for a gun safe if the moisture will ruin the guns anyway.

It's not a problem at all. Most of those quotes are speaking in general terms. Keep in mind that the vast majority of gun safes on the market are using gypsum board for insulation. These quotes are mostly geared towards them.

When it comes to fire rated safes, you'll encounter four classifications of insulation:

The first is the gypsum/ceramic/pixie dust crowd. This is mostly limited to gun safe manufacturers, and although it will provide some protection, is going to be pretty limited when exposed to a real fire. There is a reason that you will never see these materials used on safes (not gun safes) that carry real fire ratings.

The second is a moisture bearing/encapsulating fill. This is mostly used on lower end fire safes. This is the least expensive material that you will find in safes that do carry an actual fire rating. Most of the safes you will find at your big box stores use this type of material. Sentry, Brinks, Fire Fyter, etc.. I don't know of any gun safe manufacturers that have ever used this type of insulation for obvious reasons. Most of the manufactures that do build smaller safes using this method do specifically mention not storing guns within the safe in their owners manuals.

The third is a low moisture bearing (dry) fill material. This type of insulation is used in some of the higher end fire rated safes, as well as the AMSEC and Graffunder gun safes. These safes are not nearly as bad when it comes to moisture, yet the material is proven. I do not know why AMSEC did not submit their gun safe line to UL for testing, but they did submit the smaller version, which did pass.

The fourth is a burglary resistant, high PSI fill which is engineered for burglary protection, but also happens to insulate from fire. These materials are usually only found in higher end burglary rated safes similar to those you would find in a jewelry store. You can find gun safes using this construction method, but they are not very common. AMSEC builds one, and I build one under a private label. We are the only two that I'm aware of.

All in all, most gun safes use gypsum board for insulation. As a whole, these safes tend to perform poorly, especially in severe fires. From that standpoint it doesn't matter if you're looking at a Browning, Champion, Liberty, etc. They should all perform very similar under similar circumstances.

 

[lebowski]

Get a Zanotti Safe. They ship them in pieces and you assemble them in the spot you want the safe.

I had a problem with a big safe not being able to make a 90 degree turn in my basement. You can get up to a 52 gun safe. They are not cheap and there is a 3 months wait, since they build them for each order. They are rated 20 min for 1200 deg.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/

Brion

Thanks ... I considered a Zanotti, only problem is 11 gauge steel on the sides, I'm looking for something a bit thicker.

 

[MAKster]

In a situation where the fire protection is actually needed it most likely won't protect your guns. The protection in most gun safes is just drywall. The heat of the fire releases moisture in the drywall and reduces the temperature inside of the safe. Your guns will get a nice steam bath. If you house is severely damaged it might not be safe to enter for a day or two. There you will have to wait for a locksmith to come and drill open your safe. By then your guns will likely be a pile of rust.

 

[lebowski]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I ended up ordering the Sturdy in 32x24x72 without the fire protection.

The BF is a great offering for the price, I think the two of these stand out as by far the best options for their price range (both about $2000-$2500 shipped to FL). Between the two, it just came down to a matter of packaging - the Sturdy is available in a 72" model that will fit through my door, while the largest BF I can fit is the 6030. Add in the absence of fire protection, and the interior space difference becomes quite large.

I will double check the limits on my homeowners insurance policy since I'm going w/o the fire protection.

Thanks for everyone's input and helpful suggestions.

 

[kevtop]

Do you need a fire resistent gun safe

You don't necessarily need a fire resistent gun safe, just document your guns serial number, make and model, and get an additional rider on your insurance policy; its not that expensive. If however, you want to store money in it, buy a small sentry fire proof safe and put it in the gun safe. Both sturdy and Amsec are quality safes. However, the Amsec body is only 11 gauge while the sturdy is 7 or 8. Good Luck!

 

[22-rimfire]

Fire resistant safes are over rated in terms of protection. But at least they give some protection for a short period of time.

Many have their gun safes in the basement. What happens in a fire? The burning house falls down into the basement and the hot buring materials surround the safe. The fire proofing does not last long. Also, often the fire is put out but things are still "hot", and if your safe is buried in debris, more than likely your guns will be destroyed.

If you safe is stored upstairs, in a big fire, it falls through the floor to the ground level.

They work well with little fires.

The fire ratings vary and I don't believe there is an official standard for rating the fire proofing.

So, it is really just your decision if you want to deal with the extra weight.

If you have your safe in the basement, you can create your own fire proofing enviroment by building a strong closet (strong enough to support the weigh of debris falling from above) around your safe with steel door and multiple layers of sheet rock. In the basement, weight is not an issue.

There is no good answer. Fires happen and they happen very very quickly. Don't expect to be able to make multiple runs into your house to retrieve important or valuable belongings in a fire. Figure on one trip max. Sometimes you are barely able to get yourself out and your family in one piece in whatever clothing they have on at that moment in time. If you're in the shower, bath robe will likely be your clothing that you are in standing watching your house burn down. Probably the only clothing that you own at that point unless you have some in a vehicle that is not burnt up. I hate house fires and they depress me immensely.

Added: You know a fire" bob" would be much more practical than the usual SHTF scenario as it is more likely to happen.

 

[2nd 41]

My safe is not fire lined. Does not bother me.