How likely are you to shoot me?

[Owen Sparks]

A large drunk stranger was making verbal threats and attempting to lay his hands on me for no apparent reason even though I repeatedly attempted to retreat and made my intentions very clear that I did not want to fight. He still insisted on fighting.
I used a minimal amount of force to stop him once I was cornered. If I had had less training or a heart condition like Doc I might have had to resort to something more serious like a kicking him in the groin or using a weapon, but I did not. A single punch ended the hostilities and no one got hurt.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A large drunk stranger was making verbal threats and attempting to lay his hands on me for no apparent reason...

Yea, but that's not the story you told to start this side discussion. What you wrote back in post 7 was:

...If you still kept moving towards me I would probably throw a medium power sucker punch to the solar plexus and then back away....

So quit trying to justify nonsense by changing your story.

 

[mljdeckard]

In all fairness, I think that was what Owen implied, even if he didn't spell it out.

 

[Doc3402]

In all fairness, I think that was what Owen implied, even if he didn't spell it out.

I agree. He also could have been making a statement based on past experience. He reacted this way one time, and he may react the same way again if presented with the same set of circumstances.

I think someone is trying to prolong the argument in order to get in the last word. I've seen it before from that poster, so don't let it get to you.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Doc3402: There is one thing you are incorrect about in your most recent post, at least as it pertains to me.

"...could not have been avoided."

Sorry. "Is necessary" is the operative phrase in the Florida statute. It means "it cannot be avoided", or if you prefer, "there is no other way."

We no longer have a duty to retreat.

You never had a duty to retreat unless retreat was safely possible. The problem was the difficulty often encountered providing evidence that you could not have safely done so, so the Florida legislature wisely eliminated the evidentiary requirement, as have some others and some courts.

If at all possible I will attempt to, but I am no longer obligated to attempt a retreat under Florida Statute.

Good thinking. Evidence of an attempt to retreat will go a long way to proving immediate necessity.

It will also help establish that you were the defender. Everyone needs to remember that when two people get into some kind of altercation that leads to the use of deadly force, the evidence after the fact may be sparse, and the mere fact that one who used deadly force considers that it was he who was the good guy won't mean very much at all.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I think that was what Owen implied, even if he didn't spell it out.

But when we discuss these topics, it's very important to be both explicit and clear. Legally there's a world of difference between --

...A large drunk stranger was making verbal threats and attempting to lay his hands on me for no apparent reason ...I used a minimal amount of force to stop him once I was cornered.

and

...If you continue to encroach on my personal space even though I keep moving away the next step would be a verbal warning such as:

“ Hey, I don’t know you stay back.”

If you still kept moving towards me I would probably throw a medium power sucker punch to the solar plexus and then back away....

The use of force can be justified in the former, but not, without a lot more, in the latter.

Details count, and we can't read minds.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by mljdeckard: In all fairness, I think that was what Owen implied, even if he didn't spell it out.

I really didn't see that at all in Post #7, but he did later describe a quite different scenario.

I will not criticize his action under those (later described) circumstances, but the story was a lot different that time. In Post #7, he clearly suggested the commission of what might very well have been judged a crime.

Also, I would not be one to create what could become or lead to evidence against me had it happened to me, because things could turn around again if the alleged "bad guy" wants to make trouble.

As you very well know, posting "this happened to me" stories can really lead to difficulty.

 

[Kleanbore]

Just to be Perfectly Clear

I have not been not been trying to argue with anyone. My objective is to try to help our members have the best possible understanding of the use of force laws before they have to deal with them.

That is also true of attorney Frank Ettin, of Sam1911, and of the rest of the staff here at THR, and of many of our other members such as, for example, mljdeckard.

For those who want to learn more, I suggest studying this carefully.

I also verystrongly suggest attending the classroom portion of MAG-20 with Mas Ayoob. It will take a couple of days and cost a few dollars, but believe me, it might turn out to be the best investment you ever made.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

A clear example of "say what you mean and mean what you say" at work here. None of us are mind readers. We can only respond to what someone actually types out.
Whatever Owen was thinking or picturing in his mind, the situation that he actually typed out:

Originally Posted by Owen Sparks
...If you still kept moving towards me I would probably throw a medium power sucker punch to the solar plexus and then back away....

Would almost certainly be a crime on Owen's part.

You can't just hit someone when they don't do what you tell them. Even if they make you uncomfortable.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I told him not to put his hands on me, even if indirectly, and to leave me alone as I was trying to leave.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I told him not to put his hands on me, even if indirectly, and to leave me alone as I was trying to leave.

Now you're changing the story yet again. It's irrelevant at this point, so let it rest.

 

[Owen Sparks]

How did I change the story Frank? I repeatedly attempted to retreat and made my intentions very clear that I did not want to fight. After all we can't fight if he does not attempt to lay hands on me.I verbaly told him "Stay back, I am afraid of you" or some simblance there of. Then I hit the guy once I could no longer retreat (in a stand your ground state). Just how far are you supposed to let an attacker go? In my state a threat of violence constitutes assault and I let it go way beyond that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

How did I change the story Frank?...

Every time you've posted about this, beginning with post 7, the story changes a little. It needs to stop. You are wasting everyone's time.

 

[Cory.S]

I am pretty heavily tattooed and I haven't had any problems. People usually like me after talking to me.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Owen Sparks]

Post 7 was an explanation of the principle; Don’t fight unless you have to but once you see that fighting is unavoidable, throw the first punch and end it. Subsequent posts are about one of my personal experiences though I do divulge more information about that particular incident the thread progresses, if you can call that a “change”.

That being said, I used this technique of a quick debilitating body punch multiple times during the five years that I worked as a bouncer. It works and leaves no permanent damage. This is a far better option than using deadly force. If I can punch an agressor rather than shoot or stab him I will. Deadly force not the answer to every problem.

 

[Kleanbore]

We have strayed from the original question.

We have heard suggestions that striking someone for encroaching on one's "personal space" would be appropriate and that it would be acceptable beause it would leave no evidence. We then heard explanations about what allegedly did at least once occur to one poster.

We have heard an argument that a disparity of force would justify the use of force, and even deadly force, against a "perceived threat" that had walked toward someone.

These comments have been responsibly addressed, and it is hoped that the answers have benefited our members.

That's all, folks.