How long can you keep a 1911 magazine loaded?

[Drail]

Feel free to believe anything you like. This is America.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Springs do not wear out from sitting compressed.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

JMO but magazines are a consumable item. No matter what you do they're going to wear out. Alternatively you may wake up (as those of us in Colorado did) one morning and find that the standard magazine for your particular handgun is now illegal to buy.

When I buy a handgun I try to buy as many standard magazines for it as I can afford when I buy the gun. 18 feels like the right number to me and since I only have 3 handguns, two of which will accept the same magazine it's doable for me.

1911 magazines aren't hard to come by. If Mec-Gar makes them buy as many as you can afford and don't worry about it.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Let's put it another way...

If you well and truly DO wear a magazine spring out, then you have long, long since gotten your money's worth out of it.

IF that happens...pony up a few dollars and replace the spring with another one and be done with it.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

This is why I don't care to research all the metallurgy behind springs and enough reading to read my eyes out haha. Everything I've ever experienced goes with exactly what he just said. I don't buy cheap guns to begin with and use factory mags.

And if the only thing you ever shoot is 7-round mags in a 1911, then you have no reason to do any research.

If, however, you ever buy a small pocket gun with a very small recoil spring, or a gun with relatively high capacity mags, or shoot any of the gun games with mags that hold 17-21 rounds, you might find your "spring" experience a bit different than with those 1911 low-cap mags.

As I wrote earlier, all mags and mag springs are not created equal and all don't do the same work. Making broad statements based on such a limited experience base just is not appropriate.

.

 

[CDW4ME]

My take on this thread so far...
I have new 8 round flush fitting magazines for my 1911, they have been tested for function with HP.
I load those 8 round mags to capacity and leave them, use 7 round mags for shooting.
The 8 round mags will be good for years because they are not going through compression / decompression cycles.
Correct?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My take on this thread so far...
I have new 8 round flush fitting magazines for my 1911, they have been tested for function with HP.
I load those 8 round mags to capacity and leave them, use 7 round mags for shooting.
The 8 round mags will be good for years because they are not going through compression / decompression cycles.
Correct?

Correct...

 

[JTQ]

My take on this thread so far...
I have new 8 round flush fitting magazines for my 1911, they have been tested for function with HP.
I load those 8 round mags to capacity and leave them, use 7 round mags for shooting.
The 8 round mags will be good for years because they are not going through compression / decompression cycles.
Correct?

That's not the takeaway I get from the thread responses.

A flush fit 8 round 1911 mag was designed to hold 7 rounds. Most of the folks have commented on over compression, such as those comments from Walt Sherrill and Drail. A 7 round 1911 loaded with 7 may last forever. I'd expect a 7 round 1911 mag (which is what a flush fit 8 rounder is) loaded with 8 rounds to have a significantly shorter life.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Correct...

Not correct...

Compression and decompression ONLY MATTERS if the spring, when compressed, is compressed to or past it's design (elastic) limit. This is true of most materials -- rubber, wood, glass, steels, aluminum and various metal alloys. Some materials are more resilient than others and can return to their normal state without damage when stressed. But they all will begin to degrade when they're stressed too far.

If you never load a 17-round mag beyond 10 rounds, and it'll probably outlast a 7-round 1911 mag -- if that's possible.

What damages a spring is NOT cycling per se, but the depth of the push (compression) when cycling. If the designer built the mags so that the spring is NOT compressed to or past it's design limit (as is the case with most 1911 7-roundmags), it'll last a long, long time -- even if left fully loaded -- because when fully loaded, it's not fully compressed.

But if the designer built the mag to hold more rounds than usual (i.e., it's a hi-cap mag, or in the case of a recoil spring, the designer needs to fit the spring in a smaller space than using, by using less material, the spring might not last as long. With some gun designs, nowadays -- particularly with pocket guns and hi-cap mags -- springs are viewed (by the gun designers) as renewable resources.

Some 8-round 1911 mags can hold up quite well; others may die an early spring death. As others have noted here, even the much liked Wilson 8-round mags won't last forever. But, long as you're dealing with 1911 magazines you'll have fewer problems than with some other designs. But you'll also have less mag capacity.

Most 10-round mags in full-size guns may never have to be replaced, even if kept loaded. But some hi-cap mags in some gun designs will fail relatively quickly if cycled a lot or kept fully loaded. Downloading a round or two (for cycling or long-term storage) with some mag designs, will keep the mag spring from cycling too deeply and that self-imposed limit will prolongs the spring's working life. With other designs it doesn't seem to matter. Others say mag springs are relatively cheap, and they want hte extra rounds.

 

[Tirod]

Keep in mind this applies to springs wound in a spiral manner which are then compressed in a magazine as it is loaded. It's the standard way most magazines are fabricated.

However, there are other designs in use. A follower with a clock wound spring under it and the tail fastened at the top of the mag unwinds as it is loaded and it also a constant rate spring. It doesn't get heavier per inch as it's compressed. There are magazines that use that method, they have been on the market for over a hundred years, and they are still in use - the factory Ruger 50 shot 10/22 mag for one. I've heard of issue M9 Berettas that use them.

One feature of the clock spring mag is that when fully loaded the follower is resting at the bottom with only the anti tilt legs under it - the spring is almost entirely unwound. You get more rounds in for the same length mag with less wasted space. And as far as longevity is concerned all the physical and metallurgical issues are the same - it's not going to lose it's pressure. Considering the number of clock springs made for clocks in the last three centuries, they do just fine.

There have been no warnings or declarations of problem use with magazines in the military about mags and loading them affecting the spring tension and causing failures. Ok, lets talk about downloading the M16 mag since that will be the first red flag someone throws up. It solved a few issues that are actually related to the soldier's use. Like, jamming the mag into the weapon with the bolt closed, or the column stack pressure being too HIGH in new mags that the bolt has issues pushing the first round into the chamber. It's not a spring getting loose problem - it's a spring tension being too HIGH issue. And that goes for the pistol makers and users who suggest leaving your new mags loaded to help reduce initial problems with Failure to Feed.

Well, if springs don't lose tension then why is it recommended?

Hopefully you see the dilemma.

I wouldn't worry about spring tension so much as relieving sharp edges and burrs from the feed lips and cycling the follower in the magazine tube to see if there are hangups and burrs there. The engineers got the spring issues fixed long ago - what we need to check are the fabrication issues and how those might affect operation.

 

[Walkalong]

Compressing a spring past its design limit can damage it. (Pushing anything past its design limit can cause damage.)

Cycling will eventually wear out a spring, but good springs can take a great many cycles (Some are rated over a million) before getting weak. (Cycling them over and over beyond their design limit will cause failure much, much sooner.)

Coil springs such as mag springs do "take a set", and will then be shorter than when new. They should stay close to that length now for virtually the life of the spring.

Most springs are cheap, so if you use them hard, don't be afraid to replace them on occasion.

Recoil springs and mag springs are the most commonly replaced from use. Most other springs don't get near the stress (Compressed less).

With a mag spring that is not compressed past its design limit, it can stay compressed (Loaded) for a very long time and be good to go. Think 7 round mags. A lot of the newer 8 rounders have an extended body to help with that.

But I'm no expert.

 

[HexHead]

Until you get around to shooting it, however long that takes.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

However, there are other designs in use. A follower with a clock wound spring under it and the tail fastened at the top of the mag unwinds as it is loaded and it also a constant rate spring. It doesn't get heavier per inch as it's compressed.

I had a few of those some years back. Got them CHEAPLY from CDNN for CZs. I think they were made by RAMLINE (and IF I remember correctly, they said Magnum Research on the base plate.) They worked beautifully for a long time. Because one end of the spring was riveted to the top rear of the mag tube and the other end was attached somehow (riveted?) to the follower, there was no replacing the springs. It was an interesting design. I think I had 5 of them at $3 a pop.

 

[CDW4ME]

That's not the takeaway I get from the thread responses.

A flush fit 8 round 1911 mag was designed to hold 7 rounds. Most of the folks have commented on over compression, such as those comments from Walt Sherrill and Drail. A 7 round 1911 loaded with 7 may last forever. I'd expect a 7 round 1911 mag (which is what a flush fit 8 rounder is) loaded with 8 rounds to have a significantly shorter life.

Not correct...

Compression and decompression ONLY MATTERS if the spring, when compressed, is compressed to or past it's design (elastic) limit. This is true of most materials -- rubber, wood, glass, steels, aluminum and various metal alloys. Some materials are more resilient than others and can return to their normal state without damage when stressed. But they all will begin to degrade when they're stressed too far.

If you never load a 17-round mag beyond 10 rounds, and it'll probably outlast a 7-round 1911 mag -- if that's possible.

What damages a spring is NOT cycling per se, but the depth of the push (compression) when cycling. If the designer built the mags so that the spring is NOT compressed to or past it's design limit (as is the case with most 1911 7-roundmags), it'll last a long, long time -- even if left fully loaded -- because when fully loaded, it's not fully compressed.

But if the designer built the mag to hold more rounds than usual (i.e., it's a hi-cap mag, or in the case of a recoil spring, the designer needs to fit the spring in a smaller space than using, by using less material, the spring might not last as long. With some gun designs, nowadays -- particularly with pocket guns and hi-cap mags -- springs are viewed (by the gun designers) as renewable resources.

Some 8-round 1911 mags can hold up quite well; others may die an early spring death. As others have noted here, even the much liked Wilson 8-round mags won't last forever. But, long as you're dealing with 1911 magazines you'll have fewer problems than with some other designs. But you'll also have less mag capacity.

So modern / advanced spring materials like "rocket wire" used in Kimpro Tac Mag, and newer follower designs do not overcome that the 1911 magazine body was originally designed for 7 rounds?
http://www.brownells.com/magazines/...ize-ss-7-round-sku687000076-57186-118971.aspx
Revised summary of thread so far, compression and decompression (cycling) are what causes a magazine spring to lose tension ...
Unless the spring is in a flush fitting 8 round 1911 mag in which case just being loaded for extended time will do it because its over compressed.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Revised summary of thread so far, compression and decompression (cycling) are what causes a magazine spring to lose tension ...
Unless the spring is in a flush fitting 8 round 1911 mag in which case just being loaded for extended time will do it because its over compressed.

Generally, yes. The problem that arises with cycling coil springs is that the springs only experience significant wear when they are severely/deeply compressed. Releasing a spring reduces the depth of compression that might be causing the metal to eventually fatigue or deteriorate. If springs aren't depressed deeply (near their design limit) they still will experience some wear, but they'll probably outlive the mechanism to which they are attached.

It's important to realize that 1911 magazines are not TYPICAL magazines. JMB thought 7-rounds was enough and that's what the Army wanted ; and most 1911 users felt that was enough, too, until after WW2!

Most full-size guns and many compact or sub-compact guns now use hi-cap double-stack magazines. Single-stack guns and magazines are increasingly rare. And many of the new mags seems to be very long-lived.

A magazine spring that has been downloaded 2-3 rounds and fired to empty (one cycle) isn't being compressed as much as one that hasn't been downloaded but fired to empty. The number of cycles are the same, but the amount of work done by the downloaded spring isn't the same as the work done by the spring in the fully-loaded magazine.

According to the metallurgists who have discussed this on forums like this, there haven't been any great advances in wire technology (ala "rocket wire") in the past several decades -- and certainly nothing that has revolutionized gun technology.

As best I can tell, the big change in gun design in recent years has been the increased use of aluminum alloys and polymer in frames, along with the use of CNC machining, investment casting,and MIM technology, and the willingness of designers to look at springs as renewable resources, able to do more if replaced more frequently.

That's what Rohrbaugh did with some of his very small guns; a recoil spring for the R9, for example, has a recommended cycle life of 250 rounds. Apparently that was necessary to make a spring small enough to fit where it had to fit, while still doing the job. It could only do it for a while, before it became less reliable -- critical in a self-defense gun. The recommended recoil spring cycle/usage for most sub-compact guns is substantially less than what is recommended for full-size guns, even though the rounds being fired are the same. Recoil sprigs and mag springs aren't THAT different. It would appear that the cycles alone isn't the only factor to be considered.​

With that mind set, designers are now free to overwork the springs to gain extra capacity or gain space where it's needed (as in sub-compact guns.) And while follower design is important, it's arguably incidental -- more a mag design change than anything to do with spring function: the spring in that mag still has to do the work it's always done and continue to do the work reliably.

I may be showing my ignorance here (and it certainly won't be the first time ) but I suspect most claims of new technological breakthroughs (like "rocket wire") used in firearms are mostly marketing hype, but will happily stand corrected IF I'm wrong about this. (The only "rocket wire" I've heard anything about, and it is new technology, isn't used to make springs but to connect circuitry.)

 

[hdwhit]

My grandfather's 1911 lived in the nightstand next to his bed with a full magazine from the time he retired from the Army in 1960 until he died. When I inherited it, I replaced the ammunition in the magazine, but it remained loaded; albeit now in a safe, not a nightstand drawer. 57 years later it still functions flawlessly.

 

[entropy]

I have a friend who found a 1911 behind a dresser drawer that had been put there in 1925. He found it in 1980. He shot all 7 without any problems, and the mag still worked when he sold it 500 rounds or so later....
so at least 55 years. My CMC Shooting Star spring wore out in about 5 years, but I use that one at the range the most, so it's to be expected.

 

[BSA1]

I am conservative when it comes to magazine capacity. Since gun manufacturers have spent a lot of money designing and making their magazines to hold a specific number of rounds I tend to stick with the original design (i.e. 7 round instead of 8 round 1911 mags, 15 round instead of 17 round in Beretta, Rugers, etc.)

I do make it routine practice to replace the springs of used mags I acquire with new ones from Wolff. I have been meaning to dig out of the trash the springs of the used Beretta 92 mags I have brought. I think the differences may be of interest.

New Wolff springs at least remove doubt about the spring being too weak.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I have a friend who found a 1911 behind a dresser drawer that had been put there in 1925. He found it in 1980. He shot all 7 without any problems, and the mag still worked when he sold it 500 rounds or so later....
so at least 55 years. My CMC Shooting Star spring wore out in about 5 years, but I use that one at the range the most, so it's to be expected.

How were you able to figure out when the gun was hidden?

 

[entropy]

How were you able to figure out when the gun was hidden?

Well, I wasn't there, but he was doing some remodel work for a guy who flipped houses, and when pulling the drawers out of a dresser to move it, found it behind the drawer, sitting in the framework, on top of a newspaper from 1925. Since there was nothing of historical note in the paper, we assumed it had been set in there to protect either the furniture from the gun's oil (long since dried up) or the gun from the wood. (which makes less sense.)

 

[pintler]

I've had two of the Wilson 8 round 1911 mags loaded to capacity for 15 years or so. They are only unloaded when I shoot them, and are reloaded later that day when I get home.

That's not to say springs don't go bad; I've had guns start to malfunction and cured them by replacing springs. None of those have been mag springs yet, but you never know about tomorrow. If you think a spring might be causing problems, they're usually pretty cheap to replace.

I know, I know - only 15 years!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Well, I wasn't there, but he was doing some remodel work for a guy who flipped houses, and when pulling the drawers out of a dresser to move it, found it behind the drawer, sitting in the framework, on top of a newspaper from 1925. Since there was nothing of historical note in the paper, we assumed it had been set in there to protect either the furniture from the gun's oil (long since dried up) or the gun from the wood. (which makes less sense.)

That makes sense. I would have kept the paper just to have it.

 

[Float Pilot]

Gee whiz, all this worry about spring compression cycles has me wondering how I managed to shoot thousands of rounds through machine guns which were almost as old as I was at the time. I better go down stairs and rewind my 123 year old clock.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Gee whiz, all this worry about spring compression cycles has me wondering how I managed to shoot thousands of rounds through machine guns which were almost as old as I was at the time. I better go down stairs and rewind my 123 year old clock.

As noted earlier, it's not really the NUMBER of compressions that is the big deal, but how DEEPLY the springs are compressed during routine use. Machine guns, especially the older ones, don't stress their springs the way SOME (not all) magazine springs are stressed. Recoil springs in sub-compact guns are a problem, too.

Tappet springs in car engines will cycle many millions of times during the engine's life, and they seldom fail -- because their designers make sure that they are used within their design limits (and you can't really overstress them.) Seven-round 1911 mags were the same way -- the springs were never compressed that far. I suspect that WWI and WWII machine gun springs were similarly designed to operate without failure.

Some compact gun recoil springs don't last longer than a few hundred cycles, because they must fit smaller springs into tighter/smaller spaces while still doing the same job full-size recoil springs do. The springs in full-size guns last many thousands of cycles. Cycling alone isn't the issue.

 

[Drail]

I have to chuckle every time someone brings up the analogy of auto springs and magazine springs. Valve springs and suspension springs have loads applied that are a small fraction of their rated load capacity and that's the way it should be. Magazine springs are frequently loaded close to the absolute limits of the spring - and in some cases may even exceed it just to sell extra capacity to consumers. The original 7 round 1911 magazine stories people keep posting are all true but again, those springs were made from very high quality spring steel that was carefully tempered and never stressed anywhere near the elastic limits. They were not mass produced in Asia for the lowest possible cost. The situation with today's firearms and magazine springs is not the same. Today it seems to be all about "how many rounds can we physically cram in a magazine?" - using the cheapest springs they can buy in bulk - and that "capacity" is more important to consumers who for the most part know almost nothing about springs - or have been led to believe that magazines springs never fail. IMO.