RetiredUSNChief
Member
If we're talking muzzle loading deck guns from the days of wooden ships and iron men, they lasted decades...much longer than the lifespan of the individual ships. Wooden ship lifespans might be around 15 years.
How long does a cannon last?
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If we're talking muzzle loading deck guns from the days of wooden ships and iron men, they lasted decades...much longer than the lifespan of the individual ships. Wooden ship lifespans might be around 15 years.
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bornintheeu
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Thank you
CapnMac
Member
Back in the days of smoothbore black powder canons, the "windage" required (difference in shot diameter versus bore dimension--required for loading) was "closed up" with the wadding. Erosion was not much an issue.
Once bores became rifled, erosion becomes more of an issue. As the bores got larger, particularly 12" and over, the barrel construction also becomes an issue. But also the benefit. Being able to re-liner a 14" naval rifle meant being able to return that gun to service faster (since you have to cut through the turret armor to get the rifles out of their trunions).
The WWI German "Paris Gun" had a rather short life due to just how high the pressures were to achieve the range required.
In the large rifles (12" and larger bore) the propellant gases are getting very close to being plasmas--so throat erosion can be an issue. It's also why rounds that size have pre-engraved driving bands (to match the rifling) .
Once bores became rifled, erosion becomes more of an issue. As the bores got larger, particularly 12" and over, the barrel construction also becomes an issue. But also the benefit. Being able to re-liner a 14" naval rifle meant being able to return that gun to service faster (since you have to cut through the turret armor to get the rifles out of their trunions).
The WWI German "Paris Gun" had a rather short life due to just how high the pressures were to achieve the range required.
In the large rifles (12" and larger bore) the propellant gases are getting very close to being plasmas--so throat erosion can be an issue. It's also why rounds that size have pre-engraved driving bands (to match the rifling) .
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
LOL !
I did have a handgun barrel split at the forcing cone from constantly firing full-house .357s through it.
I understand that at least one of the German superguns ("Big Bertha," the railroad guns, whatever) required successively larger shells as firing progressed. The shells were numbered for that purpose.
By the way, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought rifled naval guns were called "Naval Rifles?" Update me on the nomenclature, please?
Terry, 230RN
Kano383
Member
What language do you speak? From the literal computer translation, it's a latin language, probably French. Si c'est le cas, envoie-moi tes questions, je les traduirai en Anglais... Italiano, Español, Português, Româneste, I can help too.
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bornintheeu
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<br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div id="inner-editor"></div>
Effectivement c'est du francais translaté via Google.
Mon anglais est médiocre et visiblement cela pose problème.
Merci pour votre proposition très aimable, j'enferais usage.
174/5000
Indeed it is French translated via Google.
My English is mediocre and obviously this is problematic.
Thank you for your very kind proposal, I would use.
Radagast
Member
BornintheEU:
I'm drinking a beer right now after I spent the day working in 100 degree heat, so no insult was intended.
My Glock 17 has over 25,000 rounds down the barrel with no noticeable loss of accuracy. Hirtenberger put 346,000 rounds through their test Glock 17 before retiring it:
There are a number of high round count revolvers listed in this thread at the The Firing Line, which is a sister forum to The High Road:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407063
My experience with all steel S&W revolvers is other small parts will fail, but not the barrel, if treated properly. It is well known that light weight .357 magnum ammunition fired through the lighter K frame guns may destroy the forcing cone, effectively ruining the gun. This is not an issue with 38 specials fired through the same gun, or .357 if used in the larger N frame or L frame guns.
http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm
Alloy frame Airlight and Scandium S&W revolvers may suffer frame stretching well before a steel gun will wear out. If buying to carry, then its a trade off of comfort and concealment vs durability. If buying for target or hunting, get an all steel gun.
Todd Green (RIP) at PistolTraining.com did a number of high round count tests of different 9mm handguns. Again small parts or frame failures were what caused the failures, not barrel failures.
After 63,000 rounds and a broken slide, the Smith & Wesson M&P still grouped into 1.5 inches:
https://pistol-training.com/archives/1252
One of the more readily available guns in the EU is the CZ75 series and its clones by Tanfoglio. Again small parts failures are much more likely than the barrel. I would not hesitate to buy one for range use though, the CZ75 Shadow is an awesome range gun.
Hope this helps.
I'm drinking a beer right now after I spent the day working in 100 degree heat, so no insult was intended.
My Glock 17 has over 25,000 rounds down the barrel with no noticeable loss of accuracy. Hirtenberger put 346,000 rounds through their test Glock 17 before retiring it:
https://www.cybershooters.org/?p=319
There are a number of high round count revolvers listed in this thread at the The Firing Line, which is a sister forum to The High Road:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407063
My experience with all steel S&W revolvers is other small parts will fail, but not the barrel, if treated properly. It is well known that light weight .357 magnum ammunition fired through the lighter K frame guns may destroy the forcing cone, effectively ruining the gun. This is not an issue with 38 specials fired through the same gun, or .357 if used in the larger N frame or L frame guns.
http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm
Alloy frame Airlight and Scandium S&W revolvers may suffer frame stretching well before a steel gun will wear out. If buying to carry, then its a trade off of comfort and concealment vs durability. If buying for target or hunting, get an all steel gun.
Todd Green (RIP) at PistolTraining.com did a number of high round count tests of different 9mm handguns. Again small parts or frame failures were what caused the failures, not barrel failures.
After 63,000 rounds and a broken slide, the Smith & Wesson M&P still grouped into 1.5 inches:
https://pistol-training.com/archives/1252
One of the more readily available guns in the EU is the CZ75 series and its clones by Tanfoglio. Again small parts failures are much more likely than the barrel. I would not hesitate to buy one for range use though, the CZ75 Shadow is an awesome range gun.
Hope this helps.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
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bornintheeu
Member
Thank you so much
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bornintheeu
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Radagast
Member
Good choice of guns.
with the 19-3, avoid 110 grain and 125 grain .357 magnum ammunition and minimize use of the heavier 158 grain ammunition for longevity.
Lead 148 grain wad cutter, 158 grain round nose and 158 grain semi wad cutter .38 special ammunition will not wear out the gun in a life time of regular target shooting.
with the 19-3, avoid 110 grain and 125 grain .357 magnum ammunition and minimize use of the heavier 158 grain ammunition for longevity.
Lead 148 grain wad cutter, 158 grain round nose and 158 grain semi wad cutter .38 special ammunition will not wear out the gun in a life time of regular target shooting.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
^ Now you tell me?
Where were you in 1980? I suspect that Smith and Wesson finally admitted that it was a design problem after I complained about it for years. I found out that it happened to others with that gun.
Their latest similar model got rid this problem by making the gun slightly bigger. They got rid of that notch in the barrel throat to clear the cylinder hinge.
SPLIT IN BARREL THROAT:
My youngest son finally found a nickel plated 4 inch (10,16 centimeters) replacement barrel and the gun has been fixed.
By the way, that shooting was with 158 grain (10.24 gram) bullets. I was shooting 50 shots a day for three or four days a week to practice.
Terry, 230RN
The split barrel is on top, the replacement one is mounted on the gun. It shot to the same point of aim in spite of the short sight radius. I thought it would shoot high, but I was pleasantly surprised.
Where were you in 1980? I suspect that Smith and Wesson finally admitted that it was a design problem after I complained about it for years. I found out that it happened to others with that gun.
Their latest similar model got rid this problem by making the gun slightly bigger. They got rid of that notch in the barrel throat to clear the cylinder hinge.
SPLIT IN BARREL THROAT:
My youngest son finally found a nickel plated 4 inch (10,16 centimeters) replacement barrel and the gun has been fixed.
By the way, that shooting was with 158 grain (10.24 gram) bullets. I was shooting 50 shots a day for three or four days a week to practice.
Terry, 230RN
The split barrel is on top, the replacement one is mounted on the gun. It shot to the same point of aim in spite of the short sight radius. I thought it would shoot high, but I was pleasantly surprised.
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bornintheeu
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Thank you for the details concerning the Smith and Wesson, I plan to recharge myself. By the way what powder used you BA9 or BA10?
Radagast
Member
AP70. Australian powder made by ADI.
The WWI German Paris gun required successively larger diameter shells over the short life of the barrel as well.
I have a S&W Model 19-4 that split the forcing cone after a steady diet of 158 grain full power loads, circa 1983 or 1984. I was using it to shoot handgun silhouette competitions. The split was on the bottom of the barrel where the relief was cut in the forcing cone.
S&W replaced the barrel at that time on their dime.
I've been alot kinder to the gun ever since.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Exactly the same thing for me --practicing for silhouette shooting. I had my own range on my little farm.
My letter to Smith & Wesson must have been a bit later than that, though. They gave me some excuse like they were out of stock or they didn't do nickeled barrels or they didn't like the postage stamp I used, or the moon wasn't full, or something.
Maybe I just didn't get the right tech representative.
What alerted me to the problem was cylinder binding and I noticed my Colts didn't have the same notch in their barrels.
Grrrr.
Son2, aware of the problem because of all my negative remarks about it over the years, finally located a nickeled 4 inch barrel and he replaced it for me --by then I no longer had my own shop facilities. He built a frame cradle to properly hold the frame for removing and replacing the barrel.
I note that one of my Smiths has a warning about shooting 125 grain bullets because of gas cutting on the top strap, but this problem was not due to gas cutting. It was simply due to a weak spot in its design.
I also note that my .357 Scandium/Titanium Smith has a small steel insert in the top strap just above the cylinder gap to keep the gases from eroding it.
However, I guess the hellacious recoil of that lightweight little gun with .357s will self-limit the number of .357s you put through it. Son1 described it as being hit in the hand with a ball-pein hammer when those .357s go off. I joked to him that if the gun were as light as the bullet, it would be just as dangerous as the bullet itself. He laughed.
Terry, 230RN
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CapnMac
Member
Modern usage is t call them rifles. Which is a contraction of rifled canon. Much of this goes back to when we started putting iron and steel on the outside of ships. Canon fired shot, Guns fired shells; mortars (naval howitzers) fired bombs.
In our more modern times, they are all "guns," much as in the way all Army "muskets" are rifled guns. Rifle became a way to distinguish between shorter cannons and rifles of 30 or more caliber's length (this is also why we refer to gun sizes by the bore diameter and the number of bore calibers length of the barrel. Thus, the 16"/50 cal which is more slender than the 16"/45; which are only similar to 14"/45cal rifles. Each one of those uses a rammed shell with bagged powder charges to lpropel them. Which is a tad different that he cased 5"/54cal we use near-universally in the Navy today.
CapnMac
Member
Oh yes, Bienvenue bornintheeu! (o né dans l'EU 
)
)
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Ah, the English language ! Things change, and I still occasionally slip up and call a magazine a clip and a cartridge a bullet.
So people think I'm a "newbie" and cover their mouths while they giggle at me.
And guns used to be spelled gonnes.
And we call the pellets in a shotgun shell the "shot."
And some of we olde phartes still call a round of small arms ammunition a "shell."
And don't get me started on why we call It a "round."*
And we still call cartridges with elongated full metal jacketed (FMJ) bullets "ball ammunition."*
And after all, there's what we call the Minié ball, which isn't really a ball at all ! And it isn't even FMJ, which, I'm very sad to say, seems to bother me every day,
Ah, the English language !
Thanks for that input, CapnMac !
Terry, 230RN
* http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-24947587498613_2449_302163909
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susieqz
Member
why do we call it a round?
Jim Watson
Member
And the "Minie Ball" of the Late Unpleasantness was a departure from Ol' Claude's invention.
22 rim fire match barrels now last about 30K to. 35K rounds of best accuracy (testing 1/3 MOA @ 50 yds, 2/3 MOA @ 100 yds) in the hands of top ranked competitors. They used to last twice that long until about 1980 when their primer mis was changed. Accuracy was better before then; all the 100 yard prone records set with earlier ammo still stand. Accuracy at 50 yards is still pretty good.
Russian Olimp 22 rim fire match ammo imported to the USA in early 1990's was as good as the pre 1980 ammo from Eley and RWS, but the Russian Mafia closed it down in a few years to make AK47 ammo. That Olimp ammo is what the Soviet Bloc won so many gold medals with at international matches. It was banned for importing into the USA until after the Iron Curtain fell.
Russian Olimp 22 rim fire match ammo imported to the USA in early 1990's was as good as the pre 1980 ammo from Eley and RWS, but the Russian Mafia closed it down in a few years to make AK47 ammo. That Olimp ammo is what the Soviet Bloc won so many gold medals with at international matches. It was banned for importing into the USA until after the Iron Curtain fell.
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bornintheeu
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Thank youOh yes, Bienvenue bornintheeu! (o né dans l'EU
lysanderxiii
Member
Naval Rifles are analogous to the Army's "gun" in artillery
"Naval Rifles" and field artillery "Guns" fire at a low angle with high velocity. Howitzers (both naval and field) fire at higher angles with lower velocity. Why lower velocity? Lower velocity puts less strain on the shell, so it can have thinner walls and hold more explosive.
The term 'Naval Gun' came about with the introduction of high angle of fire cannon that where not howitzers, but were dual-purpose in they were for high angle fire for anti-aircraft fire as well as low angle for surface targets.
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