How many rounds over what period of time?

rugmar

rugmar

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Joined
Mar 12, 2007
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Looking for opinions here or personal experience.

How many rounds would a person need to plan on shooting to move their skill level from average to good. How about good to really good. I know good and really good are not defined here but just generally speaking, what’s your opinion and over what length of time?

I know for me, if I shoot a couple of 50 round boxes say once every couple of months, I don’t think it changes my skill level much if any. On the other hand, if I shoot 3 boxes a week for a solid month, I can see a quantifiable difference.

What say you gentlemen?

I would also be curious how much one may need to shoot to maintain a specific skill level.

Thanks guys!
 
Speaking from experience, I used to be "not good" with a handgun. I bought a Buckmark and put about 5k rounds through it one summer and didn't shoot any other handgun. By the time I picked up a 9mm again my group size was probably 1/4 of the size it had been. I've continued to use the .22 handguns to improve over time but I can't say how many rounds or how much better I've gotten.

I do know it takes probably takes 50-100 rounds a month to maintain where I'm at, and if I skip a few months I notice a decline.
 
In what shooting domains do you practice? There is a wide variety of handgun shooting activities and places. Skill level at one isn't necessarily the same as others. Also, what gun - that makes a difference. Sorry to be picky.
 
An experienced rifle shooter told me to buy fairly good barrel on my first rifle, and when I shoot it out, re-barrel with a really good one.
Rational being I would be ready for the benefits of a good barrel by then. (5,000 rounds)
He was right on the money. I re-barreled with a Kreiger and realize exactly what he said.
 
Round count can be less important than you think. A couple ways to get better without spending tons on ammo:

-Dry fire. Assuming you have a pistol you can dry fire, clear it, clear it again, point it in a safe direction and dry fire. Watch the sights, and what they do. Notice where they are when the firing pin snaps. Do that a good bit every night or 2. You should be able to know where you would have hit and how to pull the trigger without jerking, flinching, or pulling to the side.

-Like bassjam said above, get a .22. Take it to the range every time. Don't pick up your full size pistol until you put 50 rounds through the .22. You will find you flinch less with your real gun after you have gotten used to it. That makes your more expensive practice rounds count.
 
I think theres a bit more than just shooting a specific number of rounds to it. Volume isn't always necessarily better. Its what you do that's more important.

And as GEM mentioned, there are a lot of different disciplines which all have their own differing demands. What is it you want to accomplish and get out of it?

Whatever it is you choose to do, you need to continually try and push yourself past your comfort level and try and keep moving in that direction if you want to improve. There really is no end to it, you just try to keep moving forward or at the very least, maintain.

Ive always found that regular dry fire is as important as live fire, and in some cases, more so. I dry fire multiple different guns, in multiple ways, every day. It lets you work on and focus on things without some of the distractions.

Theres no doubt, the more you can shoot, the better, as long as your learning something from each time out, and not just burning ammo.
 
Round count is not necessarily a measure of whatever.
Someone only doing slow fire (like 1 shot a second at ____ yards) is unlikely to develop their ability to hit at speed regardless of how many slow fire rounds they expend.
Once one can make slow hits, work to increase speed.
IMO a silhouette is too large a target, put a 6 inch circle on the silhouette and strive to keep hits at speed on the 6 inch circle.
When one can shoot at least 3 rounds a second (.33 splits) and keep ~90% of their shots on a 6 inch circle 8-10 yards away they have developed ability to hit at speed.
 
As others have said, there more to it than just round count… but that wasn’t your question.
How many rounds in how much time? For significant skill building i put in about 5k rounds (pistol) in a summer coupled with 3 different shooting school which were key in knowing how to use that ammo. For maintaining I use about 1,500-2,000 a year.
It also depend greatly how n what style of shooting you aspire to. Moving platform and speed will burn more than just bullseye groups.
 
rugmar said:
How many rounds would a person need to plan on shooting to move their skill level from average to good. How about good to really good. I know good and really good are not defined here but just generally speaking, what’s your opinion and over what length of time?
Click to expand...

First of all, how do YOU quantitatively define "average", "good", and "really good" shooting?

"Just generally speaking", this is an exceptionally vague question.

There's "average", which includes the entire population. Then there's "average", which includes the shooting population. Then there's "average" including the shooting population which puts in regular range time.

And the list goes on. Average for hunters, average for various agencies/groups which use firearms (police, security, military, etc.), average for various firearms classes, average for competition groups, etc.


Here's what of recommend:

Figure out what YOU'RE "average" is currently. Sort of like bowling the games and averaging your score from the results.

Then figure out what you need to do to improve on that average and work to achieve that goal.

And make it quantifiable in some way.


Then introduce additional challenges which will force you to continue improving. Like going from bench rest shooting to standing. From strong hand to weak hand. From closer targets to farther targets. From longer times to shorter times. From stationary targets to moving targets.
 
There's no magic round count that will transform one from an average shooter to a good shooter to a top level shooter. It's more a matter of proper instruction, structured practice, individual commitment and even a little bit of inherent "skill". Say it after me: Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes PERMANENT, perfect practice makes perfect.

Dry fire, proper instruction and quality time with a .22LR go a long way to forcing the good habits deep into your subconsciousness. A really great shooter doesn't have to actively think about running the gun, it just happens, so their higher brain function is free to figure out how to solve the "problem" independently of consciously executing "front sight, trigger squeeze." Dry fire reps and structured practice make the mechanics happen and don't necessarily require large quantities of live ammunition.

These days I find I get the most benefit from a range trip when I go with a plan of practice and a limited amount of ammo to execute that plan. It helps my range is a 5 minute drive away, but 50 rounds spent practicing target transitions or speed reloads is better than 200 rounds thrown downrange just because.

I've grown fond of putting 5 rounds or 2 strings of 5 onto a 25 yard target as my first cold group of the day, mostly to set a baseline for what I can expect for the trip. This may or may not work for everybody.
 
Kind of a huge question. We'd have to start by defining terms: what is "average", what is "good", and in what setting? Going from "average" to "good" in 50 Meter Free Pistol is somewhat different from doing it at the local range with a handful of buddies.

So at the most basic - the range-with-buddies scenario - I'd say that "average" is actually pretty bad and improving from there doesn't take as much practice as it does knowledge. The first step is truly accepting that the keys are the front sight and trigger. Putting the concept to use is the second. Very little of it actually requires any live ammunition at all.

So: get your gun. A revolver is better here, but an auto is fine too. You'll probably just need to run the slide between each "shot". Verify the gun is unloaded, then find a blank wall without any people or priceless heirlooms behind it. Hold the gun up. Look at the sights. The front blade should be your total focus. Keep it hard and sharp, and keep it lined up perfectly in the rear notch. It's okay if the notch is a little fuzzy. Don't look at the wall at all - it should be featureless and completely out of focus. Now start adding pressure to the trigger. The most critical thing now is that you maintain your focus on the front blade, keeping it perfectly lined up in the notch, and utterly ignore the wall. If you do it perfectly, the sights will stay perfectly lined up as you continue to add trigger pressure. Eventually the hammer will fall. If the sights stayed in perfect alignment while that happens, congratulations. Now do it again, and again, and again, until you're bored. Do it every day, for at least a few minutes.

When you head to the range, do exactly the same thing. Use the back wall of the range, or a blank piece of paper, or a target turned around backwards. It'll be harder, because of all the noise and commotion, but it's a great way to start the session. After you've gotten yourself grooved in, load up with live ammunition - hopefully something of practically no recoil, like a .22 - and do everything exactly the same way! Stare at the front sight, align it perfectly in the rear notch, and add trigger pressure while doing it - and do not look at the target!!! If you do it right, and use a backwards target, I will just about guarantee the best groups you've ever fired, and you most likely will be one of the better shooters at the range. Eventually you'll want to turn the target around and shoot for score. This actually makes it quite a bit harder: you'll want to look at the target, and that is fatal to good shooting. You absolutely have to be looking at the sights, while allowing the target to be a floating black blob. Just keep those sights perfectly aligned and sharply in focus, somewhere in the middle of the blob. And of course, eventually you'll want to do it with bigger cartridges, which also significantly ups the difficulty. Any sort of recoil anticipation - "flinch" - makes a hash out of your groups. Be prepared to frequently return to dry fire between groups. You want to be absolutely sure you are mastering those two fundamentals - sights and trigger - with every single shot.

And that's it. That's handgun shooting. Truly complete handgun men need to be able to do it fast, while moving, and/or at multiple targets, but they're all building from those two fundamental steps.

So, based upon all that, how much shooting is required to become a "good" shot? None, essentially. 15 minutes of conscientious dryfire practice every day will teach the basics of becoming a better shot than almost anyone in your circle, and live fire is there just so that you can prove it!
 
Guys,

Wow! Thanks so much! This was the type of info I was hoping for. Y’all have made some great suggestions and I’m very anxious to try them out.

The wife and I are currently shooting about 200 rds of .22 and about 3 boxes (150 rds) of 9mm per week. We are shooting a Sig P322 for the .22 and three different 9mm handguns
Depending on what we’re in the mood for. The three are similar and are all Sig as well. An older P225, an SP2022 and a P229. We are shooting various sizes of steel in the edge of the woods at various distances, closest being about 20 feet.

So as you can see, we are spending between 200 and 250 dollars a month on ammo for shooting. We have been doing this for the last 5 or 6 months. Our skill levels have definitely improved just because our hits on the steel have gone up drastically. We track our percentages and we started around 10 percent and are regularly hitting 60 percent now.

I’m not wealthy and also I’m getting ready to retire so I guess my question was partially based on money. I was hoping we could get a little closer to 80 or 90 percent hits.

With what I’ve heard here, We should definitely start dry firing and focusing on other aspects of training. That way, maybe we can make the most of our investment each month and get us where we would feel good about where we have been able to bring ourselves. IMG_1197.jpeg
 
rugmar said:
Guys,

Wow! Thanks so much! This was the type of info I was hoping for. Y’all have made some great suggestions and I’m very anxious to try them out.

The wife and I are currently shooting about 200 rds of .22 and about 3 boxes (150 rds) of 9mm per week. We are shooting a Sig P322 for the .22 and three different 9mm handguns
Depending on what we’re in the mood for. The three are similar and are all Sig as well. An older P225, an SP2022 and a P229. We are shooting various sizes of steel in the edge of the woods at various distances, closest being about 20 feet.

So as you can see, we are spending between 200 and 250 dollars a month on ammo for shooting. We have been doing this for the last 5 or 6 months. Our skill levels have definitely improved just because our hits on the steel have gone up drastically. We track our percentages and we started around 10 percent and are regularly hitting 60 percent now.

I’m not wealthy and also I’m getting ready to retire so I guess my question was partially based on money. I was hoping we could get a little closer to 80 or 90 percent hits.

With what I’ve heard here, We should definitely start dry firing and focusing on other aspects of training. That way, maybe we can make the most of our investment each month and get us where we would feel good about where we have been able to bring ourselves.View attachment 1219825
Click to expand...
I am jealous of your range!

For what it is worth, it may be in your best interest to shoot at paper as well. Steel is great fun, but your misses don't tell you much, and there's valuable information in them if you actually know where they ended up.

Good luck!
 
rugmar said:
Looking for opinions here or personal experience.

How many rounds would a person need to plan on shooting to move their skill level from average to good. How about good to really good. I know good and really good are not defined here but just generally speaking, what’s your opinion and over what length of time?

I know for me, if I shoot a couple of 50 round boxes say once every couple of months, I don’t think it changes my skill level much if any. On the other hand, if I shoot 3 boxes a week for a solid month, I can see a quantifiable difference.

What say you gentlemen?

I would also be curious how much one may need to shoot to maintain a specific skill level.

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...
Take a class. Learn to train.

Shooting a gun is not necessarily training to shoot a gun any more than banging out chop sticks 3 times a week is learning to play the piano.
 
Good training and deliberate practicing of the skills learned with 100 rounds, beats 5,000 shots reinforcing bad shooting by winging it.

Just my humble opinion, worth exactly whatcha paid for it. :D

Stay safe.
 
I got good by shooting almost every day for a year or two straight. I used to shoot 500 rounds a week of rimfire just by myself, sometimes more. Both handgun and rifle, all off-hand. I did it rain or shine, no matter, I forced myself to do it.

I also dry fired a lot, usually every day, for a spell, probably a couple of years, when I moved away from the farm and couldn't shoot daily. And of course I'd come shooting about once a week.

I don't shoot nearly as much now, and while my skills have diminished a bit, I am still way above average. If I gave it a few weeks of a solid shooting/dry firing I'd be back to as good as I ever was.

And don't forget a bb gun/pellet gun. Both are viable options to develop skills and keep them up. I've been shooting them since I was about 12. I still do occasionally.
 
1) There is no magic ratio which describes the progression path between various stages of all skills for all shooters. Not all skills are as easy or as difficult to master, and not all shooters progress at the same speed - AND - not all shooters have the same potential for maximum proficiency… some folks learn slower than others, some will never achieve as highly as others, and some skills are just harder to learn than others.

2) Quality over Quantity. Practicing techniques poorly for a great number of repetitions only serves to solidify poor technique. Even practicing properly in excessive volume which begets fatigue to the point of compromising practice quality will reinforce the poor technique. Yes, high volume of quality practice will generally be more fruitful than a low volume of quality practice, but quality practice of any volume will almost always yield better results than any volume of poor practice.

3) Dry fire training is the most invaluable tool in skill development for all shooting sports. Reinforcing 90% of the techniques required without the burden of live fire, range travel, ammo expense, recoil, etc through dry fire simulation is absolutely crucial for all shooting sports.

4) Professional training to pick up productive drills which can be practiced later is invaluable. Be mindful of selecting training courses - be sure the program includes specific drills for skill development, not just instruction for knowledge development. “Learning” is fantastic, but “learning how to develop skills outside of the class” is even more fruitful.

5) Be honest with yourself about what skills need the most attention. Reinforcing established skills takes far less work than does developing a new skill, so practice your worst skills the most. Stealing the Pareto ratio, we can productively reinforce established skills with 20% of the volume we need to give to skills which we are trying to develop. Literally 4x more practice time should be spent on our weaknesses than is spent on our strengths.

6) Yes, it is true that progressive skill development is an asymptotic approach, so the same work volume in early training will yield greater progress than it will in later training when higher skill is achieved - but it is also true that humans do have a maximum work capacity, so increasing practice volume to try to sustain the same rate of skill development is counterproductive. In other words, a shooter should practice as much as they can throughout their journey, but they must acknowledge that volume of work will see much more progress in the early phases than in the later. Increasing volume in later phase generally won’t make up for that gap in rate of progression - especially for shooting sports where the physical conditioning demand simply isn’t so high as it is for conventional sports.

7) Employing all of the above to ensure quality of practice, FREQUENCY trumps Quantity. Practicing more often with fewer rounds is more fruitful than is cramming a high round count into a few annual practice sessions. 200 rounds once per month will be less fruitful than 50 rounds per weekend.

Passing those generalities, quite obviously there are massive gaps between contextual skills. If a shooter wants to improve their first shot split from the holster, then “time to first shot” practices are in order, and each repetition may only be one shot for most of that practice volume. If a shooter wants to decrease split times in transition, then they may work reps on arrays, with 5 or more rounds per cycle. Practice drawing from the holster and acquiring sights on target can be done very effectively with high dry fire rep count and relatively very low live fire round count. Grip development to ride through recoil management to retain sights on target and reduce split times will obviously take far more live fire rounds, likely an order of magnitude more, and shortening splits at a high level of skill might take sufficient frequency and volume to increase another order of magnitude compared to the same progress, or even less, in early phase development. Cutting hundredths of seconds from splits very, very quickly becomes more difficult than cutting tenths of seconds.
 
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