How reliable is the 1911 platform?

[Wayne G.]

From http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm

Conflicts Used (1911)

Conflict Date
Philippine Insurrection 1912 - 1916
Nicaraguan Campaign 1912
Capture of Veracruz, Mexico 1914
Occupation of Haiti 1915 - 1934
Occupation of Dominican Republic 1916 - 1924
Pancho Villa Punitive Expedition 1917
World War I 1917 - 1918
Allied Occupation of Russia 1918 - 1920
Yangtze River Patrol Service 1926 - 1927
1930 - 1932
Occupation of Nicaragua 1927 - 1933
China Service 1937 - 1941
World War II 1941 - 1945
Korean War 1950 - 1953
Lebanon Landing 1958
Taiwan Straits 1958 - 1959
Quemoy and Matsu Islands 1958 - 1963
Berlin Crisis 1961 - 1963
Thailand Landing 1962
Cuban Missile Crisis 1962 - 1963
Congo 1964
Viet Nam War 1965 - 1974
Operation Eagle Pull
(Cambodia) 1975
Operation Frequent Wind
(South Vietnam) 1975
Mayagüez Rescue Operation
(Cambodia) 1975
Iranian Hostage
Rescue Attempt 1980
Lebanon Deployment 1982 - 1983
Operation Urgent Fury
(Grenada) 1983

Well, somebody thought it was reliable!

 

[texagun]

I've been a fan of the 1911 platform for exactly 50 years this month. I was in the Military Police from August, 1957-February, 1961 and carried one almost daily. The ones we carried were all very old (most likely WWII guns) and rattled when you shook them. But I don't ever recall a failure or malfunction in any of them. We were not trained in malfunctions, other than "re-rack the slide", because problems were rarely encountered. I was stationed in North Africa from 1959 to 1961 and during that period supply had some surplus Colt 1911's that were BRAND-NEW, wrapped in that heavy oil-paper and covered in cosmoline. They offered them to us for personal purchase for $25 each, and we were limited to 2 guns. At the time I was making $120/month and just couldn't afford one so I passed on the offer. Talk about regrets!!! Those guns would probably be worth quite a bit more today but I comfort myself with the thought that I probably would have sold them for $50 each when I got back to the states, thinking that I really made a great deal. Times sure change, don't they? I currently have several 1911's, mostly older models, and enjoy shooting every one of them. One of the finest and most reliable guns ever produced, in my opinion.


One of my favorites...Original Series 70 Colt with MMC Combat Sights, Cocobolo Grips, Wilson Combat Trigger with trigger and ramp job, and original blueing.

 

[Spartacus451]

Not if you buy quality. Springfield Armory, Kimber, Para Ordnance and Smith & Wesson all make 1911's that can and do run reliably "out of the box" with no work at all. Expect to pay $600-900 for one of these. If you pay less for a bargain basement gun, expect to have to work on it.

Uh huh... and how many S&W 1911s do you own? I own four and every single one of them needed multiple trips back and they still don't extract reliably.

 

[Z_Infidel]

Well, I've had two S&W 1911s along with one Springfield Armory model. All of them went through a thousand rounds with no cleaning (just some oil every 250 rounds or so) and no failures of any kind. I've put many more rounds through the S&W that I still have and still no failures. Ammo has included FMJ, JHP, and LSWC. So the companies making these guns today do turn out very reliable guns -- but that doesn't mean all the guns they sell are as reliable as the ones I've owned.

... and I don't doubt the original G.I. pistols were the most reliable and well-made of all.

 

[Spartacus451]

S&W 1911s can go for thousands of rounds without issues. But sooner or later extraction issues start showing up because they rely on the magazine for ejection.

 

[1911Tuner]

S&W 1911s can go for thousands of rounds without issues. But sooner or later extraction issues start showing up because they rely on the magazine for ejection.

Ejection on all 1911 pistols without an extended ejector is aided by the magazine, except for the last round...unless the follower is convex.

None of the WW2 contract guns were hand-fitted. They were assembled via the select-fit method using standardized gauges.

 

[Spartacus451]

Mods please delete

 

[Spartacus451]

Ejection on all 1911 pistols without an extended ejector is aided by the magazine, except for the last round...unless the follower is convex.

Can you go into more detail on this? Is it aided or dependent on the magazine? When you say "unless the follower is convex" are you differentiating between it being aided by the magazine or the follower? Is an extended ejector a valid solution for a guns that are jamming empty cases into the magazine on the last round?

 

[1911Tuner]

Can you go into more detail on this? Is it aided or dependent on the magazine?

Surely. It's aided. When the slide uncovers the upcoming round in the magazine, it bumps the empty case that's still on the breechface. The extended ejector contacts the empty before the slide uncovers the next round up.

When you say "unless the follower is convex" are you differentiating between it being aided by the magazine or the follower

The convex...or "round" follower...is basically shaped like a cartridge, and protrudes above the top of the magazine. As the last round is being extracted, it bumps the case the same as if there was another round in the mag.

Is an extended ejector a valid solution for a guns that are jamming empty cases into the magazine on the last round?

No. That's an extractor problem. Usually clocking, but lack of sufficient tension and/or incorrect geometry can also play into it.

 

[Spartacus451]

No. That's an extractor problem. Usually clocking, but lack of sufficient tension and/or incorrect geometry can also play into it.

What if we are talking about S&W 1911s with a proprietary external extractor and S&W refuses to acknowledge the problem? Fixing the problem where it lies is impossible. I have sent them back countless times and they send it back claiming it works. That is why I say the guns are dependent on the magazine. They will not eject without a magazine present and sometimes not even then.

 

[MCgunner]

1911s work fine if well made and fitted WITH ball ammo as design intended. All bets off on any given gun for other than ball, though. Some will, some won't.

I really like DA for carry and I keep my guns DA for at least to first shot. This makes switching from revolvers to autos a lot easier. You should train exclusively with the system you're going to carry and since I like revolvers, another reason to give up 1911s.

 

[Snake Eyes]

S&W 1911s do you own? I own four and every single one of them needed multiple trips back and they still don't extract reliably

I don't own any S&W 1911s because S&W doesn't make 1911s. I don't know what that thing is, but sure as hell isn't a 1911. I don't even think it's a 1911 pattern. In fact, I think if JMB was alive today he'd sue those mangy so & so's for slander.

Further, I suspect that if it could be truly quantified, we would find that more knowledgeable* gun owners put their faith and life in the hands of some sort of 1911 patterned platform than any other bottom feeder.

Just my opinions, and you may not be as grumpy or crotchety as I am.


*I'm not including any LE personnel or any one else that had their firearm choice dictated or influenced by low-bidder or the promise of dishwasher safe firearms.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I don't own any S&W 1911s because S&W doesn't make 1911s. I don't know what that thing is, but sure as hell isn't a 1911. I don't even think it's a 1911 pattern. In fact, I think if JMB was alive today he'd sue those mangy so & so's for slander.

Really? What is it about the SW1911 line that makes them something other than 1911's? The ones I've seen have been very similar to my Colts, Paras and Kimbers, and appear to have the same basic parts and operate on the same principles. So why aren't they 1911's?

 

[trbon8r]

Uh huh... and how many S&W 1911s do you own? I own four and every single one of them needed multiple trips back and they still don't extract reliably.

I guess the question begs to be asked, why in the world would you buy four of these guns if you keep getting lemons?

I guess I'm just lucky since all four of the 1911s I've owned have worked perfectly right out of the box. Then again maybe not. More likely it's not luck, but instead it's because I buy top quality 1911s instead of out of spec junk that goes out the door without even being test fired.

I recommend Les Baer. Anyone that does a little research will find that Baer has very few problems with their guns.

Unfortunately with few exceptions, the fact of life is that if you want a newly manufactured premium 1911 without a bunch of corners cut during the manufacturing process you had best plan on forking over $1500 or more. If you don't wish to spend that much, then either buy a Glock, or roll the dice and buy from Kimber or Springfield.

Sure some of the less expensive guns might work, but many of them won't. If they do work, how long before parts break? How long will the MIM sear, disconnector, and slide stop, work? Is the extractor made out of the proper spring steel, and was it tensioned correctly? Was the gun even test fired before it left the factory? Probably not. Sadly, your chances of coming back to this board and starting another "my 1911 doesn't work thread" is considerably higher with a Rock Island, Kimber, or Springfield, than with the Baer's, Brown's, and Nighthawks of the world.

You get what you pay for. Either pay the price of entry for a quality 1911, buy another type of platform, or buy something from the shortcut manufacturers and take your chances. It's really that simple.

 

[Spartacus451]

I guess the question begs to be asked, why in the world would you buy four of these guns if you keep getting lemons?

I live in MA. The other option is Para or a used Colt that has probably been boogered up. It's easy to talk all high and mighty like you are the all knowing son of God when you have the freedom to buy what you like. Given the timeframe that last three guns were purchased in and the fact that the flaw does not show up immediately nor to the same degree in every gun made it impossible to predict that the problem was so widespread. The first S&W 1911 I bought had no problems until they replaced the barrel. Now more than half the people I know that have them are chiming in and saying they have the same issue. There are MANY factors that determine if and how often it will show up. Magazine design, follower design, age and power of recoil spring and mag spring, dimensions of the rim of the brass, power factor of ammo, grip.

I have four of them now because I am a decent enough to refuse to dump them on other unsuspecting people. I wish I could say the same about those who sold them to me. S&W and private sellers included.

 

[Snake Eyes]

What is it about the SW1911 line that makes them something other than 1911's? The ones I've seen have been very similar to my Colts, Paras and Kimbers, and appear to have the same basic parts and operate on the same principles. So why aren't they 1911's?

External Extractors. Cheese Graters.

 

[AndyC]

<Jake Blues> "External extractors - I hate external extractors..." </Jake Blues>

 

[texagun]

adweisbe wrote:
"The first S&W 1911 I bought had no problems until they replaced the barrel. Now more than half the people I know that have them are chiming in and saying they have the same issue. "

I guess I'm just overly curious.....why did S&W replace the barrel if you weren't having any problems with it? And why would you keep buying these guns if you were having so many problems with them? From your previous post it would appear that the barrel problems turned up on all 4 guns at the same time.
I guess I must be in the lucky half of owners that haven't had any problems with them, other than a few pieces of brass hitting the top of my head. I've got 2 of them, both early guns, a SW1911SC and a SW1911PD and they both have been perfect right out of the box, except for the occasional piece of brass grazing the top of my head. When I change loads, even that goes away. I've followed these guns since they came on the market and most praise and love them. I have seen very few complaints, and just about all of those have been taken care of by S&W's excellent customer service. It is amazing how 2 people can have such conflicting experiences with the same gun.

 

[1911Tuner]

What if we are talking about S&W 1911s with a proprietary external extractor and S&W refuses to acknowledge the problem?

That's a matter for your legal eagle to address...because it's a design and/or manufacturing problem that they haven't corrected. Even Kimber has thrown in the towel with external extractors.

That is why I say the guns are dependent on the magazine. They will not eject without a magazine present and sometimes not even then.

The S&W pistols may not, but they should. All the ones that have a proper extractor that is functioning correctly will. All I can say is..Sorry that you got stuck with these abortions. I've always felt that the company should have stuck with what they knew best...Revolvers.

 

[Old Fuff]

trbon8r:

You get what you pay for. Either pay the price of entry for a quality 1911, buy another type of platform, or buy something from the shortcut manufacturers and take your chances. It's really that simple.

Well sometimes you do and sometimes you don"t...

But if you are going into to the $1000+ price range another option is to buy one of the older Colt commercial models or a USGI pistol. A friend call to tell me that he picked up a Remington-Rand that was refinished and had a genuine USGI N.M. barrel & bushing. The cost? $500.00 cash.

The parts are worth more then what he paid for it, and he got what he wanted... a shooter, not a collectable.

Smart buyers do better...

 

[trbon8r]

Old Fuff,

As was discussed in the other thread about GI 1911s, I would love to have one. Unfortunately I never run across one for less than $1500, and those are usually thrashed.

I guess I've never been one of the lucky guys in the right place at the right time like your friend.

P.S. The other thing about GI 1911s is that there are so many shenanigans going on with sellers like swapping parts, reparkerized guns being sold as original, etc. that it makes me leery about buying one. If there is a good tutorial anywhere on the net about how to correctly identify and price GI 1911s I would appreciate it if someone could direct me to it.

 

[jad0110]

I also own a few Glocks, and they're not perfect, either. I can induce ejection failures in just about any polymer-framed pistol, including my Glock 19, by limp-wristing it. By contrast, all of my 1911's seem pretty much immune to limp-wristing

That is the cool thing about the 1911 when it is set up right. The controlled-feed design (with internal extractors, have no clue about external etractor guns and their functioning) means that you can hold a 1911 at all sorts of crazy angles and lip wrist the crap out of it and it should still feed/eject properly. I could get my Springfield XD to stovepipe by limpwristing (albeit, I had to work at it). Not my 1911. My SA Mil-Spec has turned into a reliable performer, after experiencing a couple of feeding hiccups in the first 200 rounds. Granted, the extractor seems to be a little tight as it fails to let go of the spent case every now and then. But I think my new Wilson Combat bulletproof IE will that.

As for reliability, another thing to consider is that 1911s are often heavily customized by their owners, and the skill of said owners range from expert to knucklehead. 1911s are the import sport-compacts of the gun world. Some guys can add horsepower to their Hondas and keep them super reliable, others seem to excel at blowing them to bits .

 

[Old Fuff]

trbon8r:

Those $1500 and up guns are the collectables - in theory they are 100% original with no switched-out parts, or refinishing. If you find a possibility and post the right information (slide markings, serial number, inspector's marks. and if possible - pictures, there are several members and mod's on The High Road that will help you out.

However for each of these collector-perfect guns there are many more pistols that in one way or another were modified or refinished. Because of this the big-buck collectors aren't interested in them, but regardless they are still good shooters, and are found in a much reduced price range of usually between $400 to $800 with most around $600.

The most common adaptation is the addition of adjustable target sights, which can be left as they are, or removed and replaced with something more favorable to the new owner.

Watch smaller gun stores, pawnshops and estate auctions. I've also noted some interesting examples on www.gunbroker.com that everyone else was passing up. I even posted a "head's up!" on The High Road.

Oh, and my friend was smart enough to be carry crisp $$$ cash - which speeded things up in a hurry...

 

[Spartacus451]

I guess I'm just overly curious.....why did S&W replace the barrel if you weren't having any problems with it? And why would you keep buying these guns if you were having so many problems with them?

You are making assumptions about the chronology. I explained in my last post.
S&W replaced the barrel because it was breaking barrel link pins.

 

[Gunsmoker]

Sure some of the less expensive guns might work, but many of them won't. If they do work, how long before parts break? How long will the MIM sear, disconnector, and slide stop, work? Is the extractor made out of the proper spring steel, and was it tensioned correctly? Was the gun even test fired before it left the factory? Probably not. Sadly, your chances of coming back to this board and starting another "my 1911 doesn't work thread" is considerably higher with a Rock Island, Kimber, or Springfield, than with the Baer's, Brown's, and Nighthawks of the world.

You get what you pay for. Either pay the price of entry for a quality 1911, buy another type of platform, or buy something from the shortcut manufacturers and take your chances. It's really that simple.

Other platforms function fine with MIM parts and cost under $900. In a sense, you are saying that the 1911 is not a reliable platform.