Why not 1911 .45's

[PlayMaker]

Well I've always heard good things about .45's in the 1911 platform and don't recall anybody refuting the claims but I'm just wondering if .45 is so effective and the 1911 platform is so good than why doesn't the military or police use either? I know some would say it's political or what not but I know some smaller/local police have the discretion of choosing their arms and cartridge but none that I know of have swithched to .45, instead they went for .40 or .357 sig.

Nothing against 1911 .45. I'm thinking of getting a 1911 in .45 for my next gun. I'm just wondering if the 1911 has any drawbacks besides capacity that I'm not aware of such as reliability, durability, etc...

Also, how come no other gun design use the beaver tail grip safety? Seems like a great idea.

Any and all input is welcomed and appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[surjimmy]

MHO: The military went to the 9mm is because it's a nato round(and not the primary weapon) and we were the only ones using the 45acp. The police don't I think for two reasons, more of a chance of confronting multiple suspects(and is their primary weapon) and needing more rounds and a lot of people would freak when they saw the 1911 being carried in condition 1. What draw back? Name me one other weapon that has been around for almost 100 years and is still in major production. As a non police type person stats say if your are ever in a firefight you will only fire 3 rounds. Now I know that may not be the case, but I never feel under gunned worry about having only 8-9 rounds and someone else has more. After thought if you want to see some eye candy 1911's go to randgfirearms.com

 

[Oro]

A number of military units and police departments (major ones, not just local) use the 1911. That may help you refine your thinking.

 

[tkopp]

The major issue is, as Jimmy mentioned, capacity. You can nearly triple your capacity by going to 9mm, and though using your weapon may be an uncommon occurrence, backup may be minutes away when seconds tell who lives or dies. There's a lot of peace of mind knowing you'll never die for want of having enough bullets to throw at someone.

Another problem (and I'll probably offend some people here) is that the .45 is just an antique design. Sure, when made properly it's a fantastic weapon, but it was designed in a time when hand-fitting was common and labor was cheap. Would you trust your life on a stock, out of the box rock island 1911? How about a stock, out of the box glock? Simply put, a properly-fitted and reliable 1911 will run $800-$1000 while a Smith or a Glock will start at half that.

Now, for an enthusiast, there's absolutely nothing wrong with spending a little more and getting a well-made 1911. Or taking an inexpensively made 1911 and tweaking it until it's just right. You will end up with a beautiful, very functional and reliable weapon. Odds are you'll never be in a firefight, or that a few rounds will solve the matter.

 

[Action_Can_Do]

The 1911 is a nice platform. They can be very accurate and have a great trigger. You should keep in mind that they are also the single most overrated handgun in history. There are those who claim that they never jam, can shoot 1'' groups at a hundred yards, and will take a man's head off if you shoot him in the toe. I have shot 6 different 1911s, and I've also seen all six of them jam up.

 

[PlayMaker]

will take a man's head off if you shoot him in the toe

ROFL

 

[cyclopsshooter]

you cant blow a mans head off by hitting him in the toe?

 

[cyclopsshooter]

seriously, if you KNOW 1911s they are great, i love them and mine are all 100% reliable with good ammo... i did shoot off a box of rusty wolf ammo in my beater and had a single failure to eject- i suspect that would happen in a glock too...

by the way, our local sheriffs office gives the officers their choice in firearm. most carry 1911s

 

[9mmepiphany]

a properly-fitted and reliable 1911 will run $800-$1000

i would think a properly fitted 1911 for "hard use" would run more in the $1500-2000 range and edge closer to the upper figure. most folks will never put enough rounds through a 1911 to notice the difference, but the whole game changes when your life is riding on it everyday

with the modern choices available today, the 1911 just isn't a very good choice as an issue pistol for LE. it takes some extra dedication to keeping it running that most line officers aren't interested in assuming.

 

[wickedsprint]

You can nearly triple your capacity by going to 9mm

Simply put, a properly-fitted and reliable 1911 will run $800-$1000 while a Smith or a Glock will start at half that.

First off, with flush fit magazines, I don't know of too many 9mms that hold "nearly" 24rds. (1911 is 7+1)

And, chances are if they make a Hi-cap 9mm they offer a .45 version that is decent capacity as well, case in point, the Glock 21 .45 holds 13+1

A sub $600 Springfield or sub $700 Colt Series 80 will run fine all day long, at least the several that I have owned will. So will a Glock, but the Glock is certainly not half the price. Where do I get $300 NIB Glocks..sign me up!!

I have no idea why Police departments don't still use the 1911.

I personally have not had that conversation with anyone in the chain that makes those decisions. Unless we talk to someone who actually knows, it's pure speculation.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I personally have not had that conversation with anyone in the chain that makes those decisions. Unless we talk to someone who actually knows, it's pure speculation.

OK...i'll respond to that

when i started in LE 28 years ago, we were issued a S&W M-15 .38 spl and had the option of taking a "Auto Pistol" class and carrying a 1911 which we had to purchase ourselves...i carried a lightly customized Colt Combat Commander

i also was part of the committee that expanded our optional pistol list to include 20+ 9mm pistols when the "wundernine" became popular. at the time, we discussed the fact that we were seeing alot of malfunctions and NDs of the 1911 during qualifications. the departmental armourer...a 1911 guy...spoke of the extra attention the 1911 needed to run consistently under LE use and that many officers who were carrying it were doing so for the status it confered. the final outcome was that the 9mm pistols would be approved, while the 1911 would no longer be an optional weapon unless an officer rrquested that it be "grandfathered in". officers choosing to do that would be responsible for all their own maintenence of their weapon.

the final nail in the 1911's coffin on the department was when we converted over to issuing the Sig 225,226 and 229. the Sig was a more reliable weapon that required less care to stay in service, was less prone to ND and was cheaper as well

 

[wickedsprint]

There we go, asked and answered. If I was a cop I'd likely carry whatever they gave me if they were paying for it and footing the maintenence and ammo.. I'd rather tear up their gun than mine.

 

[DeepSouth]

The 1911 is an expensive gun that shoots an expensive round. That is most likely the reason for the shift. I have heard other reasons for instance capacity, can carry less rounds, women complain about recoil, ect but I believe it is mainly about cash.

Well I've always heard good things about .45's in the 1911 platform and don't recall anybody refuting the claims but I'm just wondering if .45 is so effective and the 1911 platform is so good than why doesn't the military or police use either?

I was told these guys do, note the art of copy and paste.

If there are any agencies on the list that you know for sure do not authorize the 1911 please let me know. NOTE: I didn't include the agencies only allowing the LDA in this list.

**LAPD SWAT
**FBI SWAT
**FBI HRT
Utah State Patrol, Utah
Dickinson Police Department, Texas
Friendswood Police Department, Texas
Galveston Police Department, Texas
Fife Police Department, Washington
Kittitas County Sheriff Department, Washington
San Diego Police Department, California
Austin Police Department, Texas
Austin ISD Police Department, Texas
Blanco County Sheriff’s Office, Texas
Plano Police Department, Texas
Richardson Police Department, Texas
Pepper Pike Police Department, Ohio
Mentor Police Department, Ohio
South Russell Police Department, Ohio
Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, Nevada
Sacramento County Sheriff’s Department, California
Hillsboro Police Department, New Hampshire
St. Charles Police Department, Illinois
Kane County Sheriff’s Department, Illinois
Sugar Grove Police Department, Illinois
Dalworthington Police Department, Texas
Hay’s County Sheriff, Texas
Williamson County Sheriff, Texas
Tacoma Police Department, Washington (issues Kimber TLE II)
Denver Police Department, Colorado
Aurora Police Department, Colorado
Lakewood Police Department, Colorado
Douglass County Sheriff Department, Colorado
Greenwood Village Police Department, Colorado
Wheatridge Police Department, Colorado
Thornton Police Department, Colorado
Salt Lake City Police Department, Utah
Blanco County Sheriff, Texas
Los Angeles County, California
Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, Arizona
Ripon Police Department, California
Anaheim Police Department, California
Salinas Police Department, California
Garden Grove Police Department, California
San Jose Police Department, California
Del Rey Oaks Police Department, California
Richmond Police Department, California
Pomona Police Department, California
Downey Police Department, California
Long beach Police Department, California
Maywood Police Department, California
Hurst Police Department, Texas
Franklin Police Department, Tennessee
Denton Police Department, Texas
Dalworthington Gardens Police Department, Texas
Tarrant County Sheriff’s Office, Texas
Gahanna Police Department, Ohio
Leon County Sheriff’s Office, Florida
Tallahassee Police Department, Florida
Albuquerque Police Department, New Mexico
Imperial Police Department, Nebraska
Cooke County Sheriff’s Office, Nebraska
Southern Illinois University Police, Texas
Roswell Police Department, New Mexico
Tucumari Police Department, New Mexico
Curry County Sheriff, New Mexico
Luna County Sheriff, NM
Portales Police Department, NM
Debaca County Sheriff, NM
Raton Police Department, NM
San Marcos Police Department, TX
Nacogdoches County Sheriff, TX
Houston County Sheriff, TX
Kerr County Sheriff, TX
Kerrville Police Department, TX (issues Glock 35 allows 1911)
Carbon County Sheriff, WY
Sweet Grass County Sheriff, MT
Still Water County Sheriff, MT
Carbon County Sheriff, MT
Davis County Sheriff, UT
South Salt Lake P.D., UT
Murray PD, UT
Missoula County Sheriff, MT
Marion County Sheriff, FL
Belleview Police Dept, FL
Lakeland Police Dept. FL
Woodridge Police Dept., FL
Englewood Police Dept. Co
Westminister Police Dept. Co
Cherry Hill Police Dept. Co
Douglas County Sheriff. Co
Lemont Police Dept. IL
Bethlehem Police Dept. PA
Bowling Green Police Dept. VA
Florida State Fire Marshal’s Bureau of Fire and Arson Investigators. FL
Bristow Police Dept. CO
Cleveland Police Dept. OK
Jennings Police Dept. OK
Pawnee Police Dept. OK
Coconino County Sheriff. AZ
Beverly Hills SWAT. CA
Franklin County Sheriff. KS
Coffeyville Police Dept, KS
Rains County Sheriff. TX
Longmont Police Dept. CO
Arkadelphia Police Dept, AR
Fort Lupton Police Dept. CO
Weld County Sheriff, CO
Lasalle Police Dept, CO
Aberdeen Police Dept. ID
Terry County Sheriff, TX
Dawson County Sheriff, TX
Lynn County Sheriff, TX
Dawson County Sheriff, TX
Lampasas County Sheriff, TX
Coryell County Sheriff, TX
Tahoka Police Dept, TX
Gaines County Sheriff, TX
Bangor Police Dept., ME
Centralia Police Dept., WA
Dover Police Dept., NH
Montgomery County Sheriff, VA
Riesel Police Dept., TX
Burden Police Dept., KS
Bolder Police Dept., SD
Hermosa Beach Police Department, CA

It is also used in more than one country

Argentina
Brazil
Canada
Costa Rica
Greece
Luxembourg
Norway
Pakistan
Philippines
South Korea
South Vietnam
Republic of China
Thailand
Turkey
United Kingdom

 

[Nowhere Man]

surjimmy says;

As a non police type person stats say if your are ever in a firefight you will only fire 3 rounds.

I believe your info to be incorrect. IIRC, an article written by Massad Ayoob corrected this.

Back in the '70s the FBI came out with Police stats showing most police officers involved in shootings fired 3 rounds on average.

What the FBI didn't do was, remove the police officers who had commited suicide. When they were removed from the statistical data, the numbers jumped to 6 rounds fired. At the time, most agencies carried 6 round revolvers.


Dave

 

[amkus]

1911s are good enough for Marine Force Recon.

 

[devildog66]

Deep South has covered the ground rather well! Point is, is that the 1911 platform is still used by the military and by many law enforcement departments but oftentimes not for general issue. It is used by specialty units for which a pistol may take on more of a close quarters battle (CQB) offensive role. At the time of the switch to the M9, the last general issue military 1911 had been manufactured in 1945, and, after all of those intervening years those 1911 pistols were tearing down faster than they could be repaired/rebuilt. I had one of the last unit armories to hold 1911s for USMC general issue and not ONE of those pistols had a serial number that indicated a manufacture date after 1945. The government made a (still) controversial decision to adopt the NATO std round in a DA/SA style pistol to replace these aged warhorses.

I also believe that if modern manufacturing techniques, i.e., MIM and CNC machining, were available at the time of this decision then the 1911 may have well stayed in service for another 80 years. To the best of my knowledge the USMC MEUSOC pistol is still a 1911 variant. The HK Mk 21 is another pistol using the .45 ACP as well but I do not think that this has gone beyond the Navy.

Based on the current evidence, I believe that the 1911 is still a viable choice as a solid reliable semi-auto pistol but the market doesn't survive on staying static and by not expanding consumer choice. Additionally, other manufacturers had to create new designs, and market them, as only Colt held the 1911 patent. Now that everyone and anyone can jump into the pool we have a wide variety of choices in 1911 style personal defensive armament.

To wit, even once fierce competitors (Smith & Wesson, Sig Sauer, Dan Wesson/CZ, and Taurus, etc) to the once Colt dominated 1911 market have jumped into making 1911 variants. So be confident in choice of the 1911 as a defensive sidearm, you will be in good company.

 

[Mad Magyar]

You've missed three crucial points in the diminishing role of the 1911 in our law enforcement agencies; mostly local.
1st. The perception of "cocked-n-locked" to the public was starting to cause reverberations.
2nd. Accidental discharges (ND's?) in Condition 1, yes, by our military as well as local LEO's were becoming too frequent.
3rd. Qualification: Too many officers, male & female, just couldn't qualify on the range with a .45. Many LEO's didn't come from a background of firearms and had no or little experience with shooting.
They might say cost or additional firepower with larger mag capacity was the reason; but believe me the above three were the most crucial.

 

[outerlimit]

I agree with the 2nd two points, though the only place I hear people worried about C&L weapon condition is on gun forums.

 

[maskedman504]

Hay guys, wikipedia says these guys use the 1911!

Argentina
Brazil
Canada
Costa Rica
Greece
Luxembourg (41 acquired through US FAP)
Norway
Pakistan
Philippines
South Korea
South Vietnam
Republic of China
Thailand
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

The fan-boy-ism evident in this thread is comical.

The bottom line is a different pistol met department standards (whatever Dept.) at a lower price; it performed better.

 

[TimboKhan]

Would you trust your life on a stock, out of the box rock island 1911

Probably. I am no defender or stalwart of the 1911, but I have never shot a Rock Island that didn't work.

If anything, I am kind of anti-1911. I mean, I like the pistol, have owned a couple, but I think that the prices are out of control and I think a good deal of the hysteria surrounding them is almost entirely due to the near constant exposure they get in gun magazines and forums like this one. Some of the hype is justified, because the design is a good one. A lot of the hype isn't. The simple fact is that there are other guns that work just as well, are just as reliable, are just as accurate and are even chambered in a different caliber.

I have no idea where you got the idea that no cops or military forces carry them. Gazillions of cops haul them around, and Colt still fulfills worldwide military contracts for them. As mentioned, certain elements of our own US military use them currently, though the basic issue pistol is still the M9.

Fort Lupton Police Dept. CO
Weld County Sheriff, CO

Haha... Fort Lupton is my hometown, and I work for Weld County!

 

[BCCL]

why doesn't the military or police use either?

As far as police, that can be a regional thing. Here in rural So. Illinois, a lot of Sheriff's Deputies carry 1911's.

 

[outerlimit]

The fan-boy-ism evident in this thread is comical.

The bottom line is a different pistol met department standards (whatever Dept.) at a lower price; it performed better.

And most people here, including those in law enforcement know what a joke that is.

Not to mention, departments drop one pistol on a dime in favor of another one for any number of reasons.

There are branches of the military and law enforcement who have elite units that use the 1911.

 

[JohnBT]

I love 1911s, but had to chuckle at that list when I saw the Bowling Green VA police department included.

"The eight member Police Department is responsible for the enforcement of the criminal laws of the Commonwealth and the ordinances of the Town of Bowling Green." - their site

It's a nice town.

John

 

[freakshow10mm]

i would think a properly fitted 1911 for "hard use" would run more in the $1500-2000 range and edge closer to the upper figure. most folks will never put enough rounds through a 1911 to notice the difference, but the whole game changes when your life is riding on it everyday

I disagree. It takes proper fitting. That proper fitting can be had for less than $1500.

With a 1911 the trouble is there are about two dozen manufacturers that produce them to varying degrees of quality. They add their own spice to the design that improves or harms the reliability.

If I were an officer and could carry a 1911 on duty the choices would be easy. I would buy TWO Colt 70 series 1911s, Government length, shorty rod, bushing, shorty plug, steel frame. Sights would be Heinie Slant Pro night sights with the 8 picture. Guns would be smoothed with moderate carry bevel, focusing on the grip area. Magazines would be Metalform 7rd, welded base, round follower and I would buy about a dozen to a dozen in a half of them. They would have the small "carry style" bump pads.

A backup would be an OACP done the same way using Metalform 6rd mag in the gun. The full size mags would backup the BUG if needed. One mag in the gun, 4 on belt, another 2-4 in the car.

My cousin has this exact setup and it serves him well and has done so for several years. He is not a gun guy, but can work a 1911 like you wouldn't believe. He's been in a few shootings and his guns never failed.

 

[Dobe]

would think a properly fitted 1911 for "hard use" would run more in the $1500-2000 range and edge closer to the upper figure.

Try Colt, Springer, or DW.