Why not 1911 .45's
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christcorp
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I wouldn't say "Why Not" the 1911A1. I personally think it's a great gun. But not all 1911A1 are the same. I ONLY will own 2 1911A1 if I was using it for defensive purposes. #1 Springfield Armory (Preferably a 1980's model and or GI or Mil Spec) or #2 a Colt; GI model. If it's for fun, I'll look at other brands.
But for concealed carry, I don't carry the 1911A1. I don't like carrying a weapon with the hammer cocked. I don't care if it's cocked and locked or not. I don't want the hammer cocked. So, I either let the hammer down (Which can be unsafe) or I don't chamber a round until I need it. (This is what I USE to do; and I was quite happy with that).
But the better choice is a SigSauer P220. It decocks and has a double action. It's also about the most reliable and dependable 45acp in the world. And no, I don't like glocks at all. I don't like how they feel or how they shoot. I'm not going to buy one. If you get out of the 1911A1 series and out of the Sig P220 area, then it becomes difficult to find a high quality 45acp. Even though I have some issues with how to carry a 1911A1; I would take one of those (springfield armory or colt) over any glock, springfield XD, or most any other brand. Luckily there is the SigSauer P220, so I don't have to make such a dissatisfying choice.
But for concealed carry, I don't carry the 1911A1. I don't like carrying a weapon with the hammer cocked. I don't care if it's cocked and locked or not. I don't want the hammer cocked. So, I either let the hammer down (Which can be unsafe) or I don't chamber a round until I need it. (This is what I USE to do; and I was quite happy with that).
But the better choice is a SigSauer P220. It decocks and has a double action. It's also about the most reliable and dependable 45acp in the world. And no, I don't like glocks at all. I don't like how they feel or how they shoot. I'm not going to buy one. If you get out of the 1911A1 series and out of the Sig P220 area, then it becomes difficult to find a high quality 45acp. Even though I have some issues with how to carry a 1911A1; I would take one of those (springfield armory or colt) over any glock, springfield XD, or most any other brand. Luckily there is the SigSauer P220, so I don't have to make such a dissatisfying choice.
How many departments issue a pistol with a manual safety? How many departments issue a .45? Sure there are plenty but those are certainly in the minority.
Striker fired pistols with a simple manual of arms probably make up the majority with DA/SA models like Sigs and S&Ws in 2nd place (just guessing). The former are inexpensive, durable, high capacity, have a trigger pull around 5-7#s and require less upkeep. It's a bit easier to teach someone to use one safely and they are accurate enough. They come chambered in 40S&W and 9mm which can be slightly better for the recoil sensitive. For a police department, what's not to like?
I'd rather be shooting a 1911 at the range but hey, I carry a Glock myself.
Striker fired pistols with a simple manual of arms probably make up the majority with DA/SA models like Sigs and S&Ws in 2nd place (just guessing). The former are inexpensive, durable, high capacity, have a trigger pull around 5-7#s and require less upkeep. It's a bit easier to teach someone to use one safely and they are accurate enough. They come chambered in 40S&W and 9mm which can be slightly better for the recoil sensitive. For a police department, what's not to like?
I'd rather be shooting a 1911 at the range but hey, I carry a Glock myself.
lexjj
Member
I'll surely take some flack for this, but I really don't think police departments put all that much thought into the pistols they purchase. Their "reasoning" has more to do with manipulating public perception in order to secure funding. As far as I can tell the reasoning goes something like this:
Patrolman: "man, we sure have had these revolvers for a long time, they are getting pretty old. Maybe we should get new guns."
Chief: "Don't worry, I'll handle this." "Listen up reporters...ZOMG!!!! Our department is soooooo outgunned!!! Teh badguys have teh new pistols and we will be overrun if we do not upgrade to semi auto 1911's!!! Bonnie and Clyde are pwning us!!!"
Skip ahead many years...
Patrolman: "Chief, these 1911's are getting wore out!"
Chief: "I'm way ahead of you." "Hey newspaper, ZOMG!!!!! We are soooooo outgunned! All the women will be raped and murdered by teh Crips unless we upgrade to high tech plastic guns that hold 20 rounds!!!"
skip ahead 20 years...
Patrolman: "sir, my glock is getting old, and frankly I'm tired of it. Please provide me with something shinier."
Chief: "no problem." "ZOMG!!!!!!! TEH BADGUYZ use body armor and hide behind steel and cars and bricks and stuff. We have to be able to shoot through that or all our officers will be murdered by the roving bands of border crossing drug cartels!!!"
Its easier to justify getting new toys....err sidearms if you create and hype a new enemy that requires a new weapon. People are stupid and won't pay to overhaul an existing stock of arms or replace vital parts, but they will be happy to buy new guns.
Repeat this scenario for patrol cars, SWAT teams, helicopters, etc. It is a bureaucratic survival mechanism to keep switching side arms, because if you don't your equipment will just wear out. Every time you switch, you have to find a new reason to, so you cherry pick your data and construct a straw man threat.
Patrolman: "man, we sure have had these revolvers for a long time, they are getting pretty old. Maybe we should get new guns."
Chief: "Don't worry, I'll handle this." "Listen up reporters...ZOMG!!!! Our department is soooooo outgunned!!! Teh badguys have teh new pistols and we will be overrun if we do not upgrade to semi auto 1911's!!! Bonnie and Clyde are pwning us!!!"
Skip ahead many years...
Patrolman: "Chief, these 1911's are getting wore out!"
Chief: "I'm way ahead of you." "Hey newspaper, ZOMG!!!!! We are soooooo outgunned! All the women will be raped and murdered by teh Crips unless we upgrade to high tech plastic guns that hold 20 rounds!!!"
skip ahead 20 years...
Patrolman: "sir, my glock is getting old, and frankly I'm tired of it. Please provide me with something shinier."
Chief: "no problem." "ZOMG!!!!!!! TEH BADGUYZ use body armor and hide behind steel and cars and bricks and stuff. We have to be able to shoot through that or all our officers will be murdered by the roving bands of border crossing drug cartels!!!"
Its easier to justify getting new toys....err sidearms if you create and hype a new enemy that requires a new weapon. People are stupid and won't pay to overhaul an existing stock of arms or replace vital parts, but they will be happy to buy new guns.
Repeat this scenario for patrol cars, SWAT teams, helicopters, etc. It is a bureaucratic survival mechanism to keep switching side arms, because if you don't your equipment will just wear out. Every time you switch, you have to find a new reason to, so you cherry pick your data and construct a straw man threat.
tactikel
Member
I've owned 2 1911s -a Govt model Colt , and a Combat Commander, I gave the Govt model to a good friend who was hired as a LEO for his duty weapon (he shot it better than I did)- his Chief refused to allow him to carry is "cocked and locked"-said it looked dangerous 
. So he carried it hammer down, one in the pipe; in effect a single action .45 with the safety on! A Peacemaker would have been faster into a fight.
XD has: all coil springs, striker fired, fully supported case head, no external safety, 6 more rounds, no barrel bushing, accessory rail, oh, and it costs less.
. So he carried it hammer down, one in the pipe; in effect a single action .45 with the safety on! A Peacemaker would have been faster into a fight. XD has: all coil springs, striker fired, fully supported case head, no external safety, 6 more rounds, no barrel bushing, accessory rail, oh, and it costs less.
FROGO207
Member
I have owned a 1911 in the past but then bought a used Smith 645 and sold the 1911 shortly after. I would routinely put 3000 to 4000 rounds a month through them both and the Smith won the challenge hands down. BTW it was an unused spare turn in from the Portland Maine PD. I think they went to a 45 cal Sig cause it had more cap in mag. Also I own a Ruger P89 DC with laser grips it is fun AND hi cap but not as reliable as my Smith. The only Smith problem was failure to fire with cheapo ammo, no feeding problems ever. Oh-yeah the Smith was LNIB and only cost $200 just over three years ago!
Rick
Rick
wouldn't that seem to be contrary to it's designation?
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orionengnr
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opinion...and not a very informed one, at that.
tipoc
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True. So is the bolt action rifle. Most bolt actions currently made are based on the Mauser 98 action which is 111 years old. Used all over the globe for hunting, plinking, target work and sniper work.
Lever action rifles are also old and retain their popularity and usefulness.
The basic design of all Smith and Wesson revolvers is over 100 years old.
The basic design of all single action revolvers from Colt to Ruger to Freedom Arms etc. is well over 100 years old. These are still used for self defense, hunting, competition, etc. They chamber the most powerful handgun rounds available.
Point is when a design is old but is still being used by millions of folks it might be wise to look at it's utility before dismissing it out of hand.
tipoc
kwelz
Member
Tipoc your argument defeats the point you are trying to make. Those guns are still in use, and still work for some purposes. However they are no longer combat firearms. They have been relegated to hunting, target shooting and novelty status.
The obvious exception being Marksman/sniper rifles that are still bolt action. However that is because the design is inherently more accurate than most Semi Autos.
The 1911 Design offers no advantages over the more current handguns on the market.
The obvious exception being Marksman/sniper rifles that are still bolt action. However that is because the design is inherently more accurate than most Semi Autos.
The 1911 Design offers no advantages over the more current handguns on the market.
mrtoren
Member
Well put. Your wisdom should be heeded by over-zealous 1911 fans everywhere. There's no need to bash Glock fans. Both weapons perform very well, just in different capacities.
The 9mm, while obviously smaller than the .45, still packs a real punch with +P/+P+ JHP's. The increased capacity is also nothing to scoff at. You can never have enough rounds available. I do agree with the NATO 9mm bashers on these forums though. If they are bound by international law from using hollow points, then they should use a larger round.
i thought it sounded strange, but i figured you were there
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I'm sorry. I never meant to imply that they never fail, and to imply that I did is equally ridiculous.
Anything that's man-made can fail, and will fail given enough use and/or abuse.
As mljdeckard observed...Most of the problems were due to bad magazines. A large percentage of the ones that weren't magazine-related were due to neglect and outright abuse. I'd also venture a bet and give you odds that there were very few that were still original, or even close to the same.
Not all the mismatched frames and slides came by way of gun show shysters assembling parts guns and passing them off as originals. Many of them were born in military armories.
So...I stand by my statement. Allow me to clarify.
Find one that's built to spec, and hasn't been tinkered with...abused by countless dozens of ham-handed conscripts...stripped and reassembled without attention as towhich parts go together...and used with good magazines...I think that you'll find that 98% of'em will do quite well without constant attention or requiring a master gunsmith work his brand of magic. Just keep it reasonably clean and add a drop or three of oil from time to time.
Oh, and...Use good magazines. It's important.
easyg - I don't really know why they suggested we keep the hammer down on a live round. I don't really think anyone in that unit knew much about pistols IMHO. There were no AD's as a result of dropping a hammer on a live round that I knew of. We did have 2 AD's with 1911's during the war with two injuries as a result from other stupid actions.
BTW - you could always expect those guns to jam at some point, even the good ones.
BTW - you could always expect those guns to jam at some point, even the good ones.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
As will any machine, given enough use. Even a sledge hammer will eventually break.
"Expect your weapon to malfunction, because it will malfunction sooner or later."
--Unknown Gunnery Sargeant--
darkknight
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First rule of a gunfight bring a rifle. Second rule of a gunfight bring all of your friends with rifles.
Leo are applying this philosophy and that's why you are seeing more rifles in cars. Adding to firepower. The 45 is great. And a 1911 is one of the best pistols ever made but it has some serious limitations. Being SA is a downfall in managements mind. Also having a total of 25 rounds on an officer is a concern, when officers are carrying 46 or more rounds on their person now with other pistols.plus cost to equip officers is a consideration. A glock cost 400 dollars while a good 1911 cost 6-800 dollars per officer adds up when u have a few hundred officers in the department. Training is another consideration. Most trainees have been trained on glocks or sigs. So u would have to retrain these officers to make them efficent with a 1911 or equip them with what they know. And money is always an issue. Same reason why officers use pump shotguns instead of semi's. A semi is far superior to a pump but a pump is easier to train on.
So management will let specialty units use a 1911 and the line officer use a glock or sig.
Leo are applying this philosophy and that's why you are seeing more rifles in cars. Adding to firepower. The 45 is great. And a 1911 is one of the best pistols ever made but it has some serious limitations. Being SA is a downfall in managements mind. Also having a total of 25 rounds on an officer is a concern, when officers are carrying 46 or more rounds on their person now with other pistols.plus cost to equip officers is a consideration. A glock cost 400 dollars while a good 1911 cost 6-800 dollars per officer adds up when u have a few hundred officers in the department. Training is another consideration. Most trainees have been trained on glocks or sigs. So u would have to retrain these officers to make them efficent with a 1911 or equip them with what they know. And money is always an issue. Same reason why officers use pump shotguns instead of semi's. A semi is far superior to a pump but a pump is easier to train on.
So management will let specialty units use a 1911 and the line officer use a glock or sig.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
When you come under armed attack, any sidearm has serious limitations. A pistol or revolver is a pretty innefectual thing to trust your life to, and its only real attribute is its portability. You can have it there with you all the time, and any gun is better than no gun when your life hangs in the balance.
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