How should I respond to an anti from europe?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I appreciate that this is OT, but I would like to join in the discussion as to the UK.

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of the RKBA, self defense etc. However as has already been pointed out, now is hardly the time to bring this into the public debate. Guns have become denormalised in mainstream British society, and/or associated with gangs. To my mind this is the biggest obstacle to protecting what we are already permitted to own and do, repealling some of the more extreme parts of what we cannot, and ultimately changing substantially what we can and cannot.

Being on the comittee for the Exeter University Rifle Club next year, I will be doing my damndest to do my bit. We are already considering many more freshers' sessions for freshers' week than we did last year, in an attempt to bolster numbers of people attending. I'm looking for suggestions as to how to make our presence be better known. Right now I'm toying with the idea of investigating or proposing working with local scout groups.
 
We fired our guns and the british kept a'comin'
There wasn't quite as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more, and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to The Gulf Of Mexico


They don't need guns in Europe....every time they get their butts in a jam, we bring our guns to save them.
 
Who cares what a Euro-weenie thinks? If he's British- he's emasculated by his own gov't anyway. If he's from the continent- it's not much better. They will never understand- which is why our ancestors LEFT EUROPE and FOUNDED THE USA in the first place.


This is like wrestling with a pig in the mud- after a while you finally realize the pig likes it.
 
Or tell them about the time the British tried to confiscate guns at Concord, Massachusetts:

And you know the rest, in books you're read
How the British regulars fired and fled
How the farmers gave them ball for ball
From behind each fence and farmyard wall

Chasing the Redcoats down the lane
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the bend of the road
And only pausing to fire and load.
 
Who cares what a Euro-weenie thinks? If he's British- he's emasculated by his own gov't anyway. If he's from the continent- it's not much better. They will never understand- which is why our ancestors LEFT EUROPE and FOUNDED THE USA in the first place.
He is the type of person,Evan,that would go and live with Somalians in Somalia,during the time of Black Hawk Down,little realising that those people don't have any value for life whatsoever(especially not for white people.) and would probably of hack him up and put his head on a pole and eat him.

His incoherant ramblings are stupid and illogical and it seems that he is probably a drugged-up college student,if Im not mistaken.He is not a product of British society,but of liberalism.You get people like him,who are wayward,in the USA too.They are called peace activists and I knew some that did volentary work,on a collective farm in Cuba.They said,"you should come too" and I said " like hell I would,Im not helping out in a despotic society,ruled by a tin-pot dictator".

Or tell them about the time the British tried to confiscate guns at Concord, Massachusetts:
yeh okay,but that was over 200 years ago,when Britain was quite a ruthless and savage superpower compared to now.The Brits confiscated your guns,because of the uprisings of the settlers,etc(They didn't even value the lives of their own citizens,who settled there.) and the fact,society and human values of those days were different.The time of torture,running the gauntlet,whippings with a cat o nine-tails,public-hangings,etc,etc.Slavery was legal then and a whole lot of other unethical and unpleasant,things too.At one time before Oliver Cromwell,a commoner,ruled Britain,after fighting the kings army,so a revolution in the UK,is possible still.

Now what Britain did in the colonies during the Empire days,is history and the fact is that the Labour party didn't exist back then,since it was the Tories and the upper-class toffs that ruled Great Britain.The Labour movement rules us now and they are far less leniant than the party that supported colonialism and unfairness,during Empire.This gun confiscation was done by ordinary people pressurising the government to take action against small-arms and most were Labour supporters and not Tory supporters.Tories support gun rights and Labour grabs them,with the do-gooders.
 
now is hardly the time

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of the RKBA, self defense etc. However as has already been pointed out, now is hardly the time to bring this into the public debate.

You are correct. "Now" is possibly entirely too late to bring self defense into the public debate. It should have been done at the very first effort to restrict firearms.

Consider, however, that if you don't get off the stick and bring self defense into the debate and keep it there the chances that you will be able to keep what you have are probably nil.

There is no logical response when your government says "things that are too dangerous to have and use for self defense are entirely too dangerous to use for sport." That is why the anti-gun forces have been so successful.

The common law right to keep and bear arms was no more about sport than is the 2A. When that is not understood, the right is forfeit.
 
Regarding Dunblane/Hamilton:

I've read the official inquiry (well, the one that was made public).

It listed a whole load of things that might have been signs that Hamilton shouldn't have been allowed to own guns.

These "might be" signs were a bizarre mixture of things that to my mind were either completely harmless and normal (he liked watching films with gunfights in them), to things that were not merely a sign that he might be unsuitable, but things that if true should have been grounds for arrest and jailing (threatening people, pointing guns at them as a threat/joke, general gross violations of the Four Rules etc).


That said, basing opposition to the ban of "the police screwed up, so its not fair to punish us instead of them", as tended to be the case in the UK both at the time and subsequently, is a weak argument in my view, as I'm sure most people here would agree.
 
Yeh definitely try with the Scout groups. The Scouts hold a shooting competition at Bisley every year (300 yard fullbore target rifle I think) and they do air rifles on their own. See if your club can get permission for them to come shoot there. If not, see if you can use some private land or just take them clay shooting. Try having parents come along too, they can see how responsible and safe their kids are and could have a go themselves. The more people who come into contact with responsible gun ownership the better. Also, try the girl guides! Might want to get the local press 'round - they're usually not too harsh on people so you'd be unlikely to 'get done' so to speak and it would raise awareness. Make sure you put up some posters for the pistols campaign to spark debate too.
 
iapetus said:
That said, basing opposition to the ban of "the police screwed up, so its not fair to punish us instead of them", as tended to be the case in the UK both at the time and subsequently, is a weak argument in my view, as I'm sure most people here would agree
.

Opposition to the ban should be based on the idea it isn't wise to "punish" the people for the act of one ... "nutter." Whether or not the police should be "punished" would depend upon them doing something (or failing to do something) truly culpable. If the police "should have" known the Dunblane killer shouldn't poseess firearms and did nothing about it, possibly some type of inquiry or punishment would be appropriate, but that should be independant from gun laws.
It never ceases to amaze me that governments will crack down on firearms rights after some particular heinous act ... only to see crime rates then increase ... and then use that as an argument for even more restrictive
laws.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson in his essay, "Self-Reliance."
 
The Thinking In Europe

Why does it matter what a Euroid thinks? They don't vote in the USA and what they think is of no consequence.

While that sounds sensible at first blush, the "EU mind" is more pertinent than you may think.

Know Thine Enemy

The people in this country who push socialism and want us all disarmed use the EU thinking model, cite the laws and customs of EU (bar Switzerland), and demand that we use their template for law and society here in the USA.

It is well to understand the workings of the "EU mind" as the socialists here want to mimic the socialists there.

Sadly, it's not enough that we have our facts straight, that we have our logic honed, that we have our legal foundations defined. The socialists don't care.

The socialists want to change the rules, by hook or by crook, to suit the templates of the European model.

They will argue in shrill voices for their cause, they will intimidate whomever they can, they will lie and misrepresent, they will ignore facts and logic, they will conspire and plot, and in the end they will wail if they lose and gloat if they win. And among their number there are many who are nothing if not patient.

The actual law means nothing to them, except as it supports their ends.

So do indeed pay attention to the minds and thoughts of the peoples of Europe.

You need to know what you're fighting.
 
Yep.
That individual wouldn't know any more about guns than he knows about fornicating (which is probably very little).
I've seen refrigerator magnets with better mental agility.
Unfortunately for us in the UK that type of individual is not so uncommon.
 
Sigh... I thought this was about how to explain the second ammendment to an European who doesnt get it, or is opposed to it without knowing all the facts... Not showing that US gun enthusiasts, hate Europe, and any other group but US gun nunts... Because it shure has started to sound like that...

Europe is like taking a trip from Canada to south Chile... You will find all kinds of variants and official lines to guns, violence and attitudes...

I mean, fifteen years ago, one needed to crosss the border to stPetersburg, and stop somebody who wanted to change dollars (no shortage of those guys back then), and ask for guns, and you got Makarovs, or even AK's. That's if you had the cohones, as rip offs were made by gun point!

Well, All I can say is that if you live in a small community in Finland and dont have lot's of crime behind you, in your life. You will have all the guns you want, even pretty cool ones like some of the latest Walther 45apc carbines, in single shot semi auto for example, and if you are into the volunteer extra veteran training, you might even get an AK-47 licence...

But, in helsinki, it's more tricky, just like the states, I belive that say, Omaha is a bit different to new york in it's gun laws, huh?

So, if you wish to rant on about how effing great the americans are and (without the obvious knowledge on military history), think that the US bailed out the Europeans, who after all were responcible of about 80-90% of the German army's losses in ww2, and about 50-70% of the Luftwaffe losses, and pretty much totalled the surface fleet single handedly by british ships... (Thanks for the B-24s for getting the atlantic gap closed btw, that was a really cudos for the US thing)...

Why not take pride in the already great acchievement of fighting the Japanese to a standstill, and then whupping them back to the islands, although the British 14 army did fight the largest japanese land army in Burma, until the Russians engaged a huge japanese army in the last week of ww2, in manchukuo... But the japanese troops there were of second grade, the top of the lot, were mostly lost, cut off, or in japan waiting for the big showdown...

The US did great in ww2, but the desicive war turning battles of El-Alamein and Staligrad both took place before the US could make it's appearance... Sorry but thats the truth.

Hey, the japs were a fanatically tough nut to crack, and in Europe, there were a fiew US divisions who suffered ww1 style casualty rates, meaning that they were in theory made up of replacements twice over before the war ended, ofcourse a core of old soldiers kept on surviving while the replacements were killed more often, so not all of the original guys died, even if the casualty rate was 204% as it was for the US 4th inf div in the ETO... (like some of the British divs and most of the Russian divs too)...

And just the spam that the us sent to russian and british troops, helped a lot! While the German and Finnish soldiers were eating porridge for days, in the meaner times...

I personally will try for a gun permit for the third time, last time (they always slap another year if you fail your licence test). Last time I got them the unheard of recommendations from two other gun owners, and their gun licences on the line if I would have fumbled up, and they came up with something else... It was like there was as withch hunt going on...

But I was told that that's how it works, the cops who are in charge of licences, are put there because they cannot cut it as regurlar cops, basket cases in other words...

But mostly in the countryside, it's much more relaxed... In the city, just dont get any fines behind you, even though a minor fine is supposed to go away from all records once payed, the cops and army keep a secret tally of them, they banned the first finnish woman from becoming the first finnish female leftenant, halfway through the four year cadet school, when they found out she had three speeding tickets, in her past!!! Yepp... It's true...

But, I want to hear more of anybody without a record, or drug busts can own a gun in Britain!!!

I'm half british, and dual national, and hey, I'll got to Britain if I can own a gun there! I just cannot wait to get into practical shooting, and hopefully get into the business....

I even have ideas for a new round, and a carbine... can foreigners get patented with an idea in the states, if they get a green card??? I really am interested... And that national rifle program that you have going (to improve accuracy in the us population), thats great! I would love to buy a M1 garand from Springfield, and start a shooting in long range stuff... that's another thing that I really want to get into... And also I would set up a 'new' sport that invoves, cross country running, map reading, long range shooting, moving undetected, and extra long range shots...

BTW, does anybody know how the Armalite AR-30 in Lapua338, or win 300 magnum, work??? Can it shoot true to 1400meters? (The best lapua338s can)...

Anyway, there are dumbo's in every country... agreed? And good people in every country too..

So, please if you want an EU bashing thread, name it as such... After all, American culture came from Europe... I mean we are family. :)
 
Funny how many posts in this thread say "Don't bother, they're ignorant and will never get it." That's the same thing many anti's say about us. If you don't bother to politely put forward your facts and arguments and instead just rest on "They're dumb Euro socialists, we're right, that's that", what comes of it? It's lazy and false to assume that people opposed to your way of thinking can/will never come around.
 
Sterling180 said:
He is the type of person,Evan,that would go and live with Somalians in Somalia,during the time of Black Hawk Down,little realising that those people don't have any value for life whatsoever(especially not for white people.) and would probably of hack him up and put his head on a pole and eat him.

His incoherant ramblings are stupid and illogical and it seems that he is probably a drugged-up college student,if Im not mistaken.He is not a product of British society,but of liberalism.You get people like him,who are wayward,in the USA too.They are called peace activists and I knew some that did volentary work,on a collective farm in Cuba.They said,"you should come too" and I said " like hell I would,Im not helping out in a despotic society,ruled by a tin-pot dictator".

LOL.
 
So, if you wish to rant on about how effing great the americans are and (without the obvious knowledge on military history), think that the US bailed out the Europeans, who after all were responcible of about 80-90% of the German army's losses in ww2, and about 50-70% of the Luftwaffe losses, and pretty much totalled the surface fleet single handedly by british ships... (Thanks for the B-24s for getting the atlantic gap closed btw, that was a really cudos for the US thing)...

17poundr,

I am going to respond as respectfully as I can.

Before I get to the crux of my opinion, I'll link to a pretty good discussion of this on:

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/30-35880.aspx

Interesting insights and arguements. They do not discount the logistic and material support the US gave to the allies prior to our setting boots on the ground.

Now...

US contribution to WW2 in Europe is more than a statistical arguement. It is a human arguement.

It is entirely possible that the nations of Europe could have eventually defeated Hitler without US aid or involvement. It is equally true that it is possible that the USSR could have eventually beat Hitler without the aid of anyone else. But the job would have been a lot harder without our aid in both cases.

What I am going to say now is not politically correct, but it is an arguement that is worth mention by the fact that it WAS a consideration when the US was debating becoming involved in WW2.

Why get involved in Europe's war at all? Germany was tearing through Europe, not the Midwest. Many did not consider Europe's war to be ours. Frankly, the most direct provacation of the US came from Japan in the form of Pearl Harbor, not Germany. As we later know, Hitler even contemplated attempting to make an ally of the US before he gained an understanding of US values and leadership.

The arguement of whether the US should have entered WW2 in Europe was one that was heavily debated in D.C. This arguement WAS made.

Now, I said that the US contribution was a human one more than it was a statistical one. I base that on the above argument.


The fact that ANY US citizens died liberating the countries of Europe is a tremendous contribution to a war that was percieved by many as not our problem. The blood spilled there was for Europe and for the US ideology of fighting for what was right. However, none should be able to doubt who benefited more from US involvement. Let's see--- the US gets to feel good about fighting for the right thing. France gets their country back. No question in my mind who benefits more.


My grandfather was pulled from his life at the age of 30 years old in order to land on D-Day. He was shot landing on the beach, but was a glancing shot. Three months later, he took shrapnel from a morter round through his right ankle. It took 4 months in a hospital to recover and he walked with a limp and painful nerve damage until he died 3 years ago.

Yet, to his dying day, he considered his fight against Hitler the most important battle against pure evil he ever waged. I respect his ideology and his sacrifices for that ideology.

He was one of millions that share both that ideology and those sacrifices.


Yeah... the US soldier that bled and died on European soil are/were that "effing" great.



-- John
 
Revealed: the fatal failures behind Dunblane children's massacre
MICHAEL HOWIE

Key points
• Cullen Inquiry reveals deadly lapses that may have allowed killings to occur
• Warnings over Thomas Hamilton were given but not acted on
• Inquiry findings were to be kept secret for 100 years but are now revealed

Key quote
"If the kind of circumstances as described are allowed to continue without some kind of intervention, I consider that other children may be placed at risk. In like situations arising unchecked I fear that a tragedy to a child or children is almost waiting to happen." - Letter from the Children's Reporter to Fife Regional Council and Fife Constabulary

Story in full

THOMAS Hamilton showed a handgun and bullets to children only days before he massacred 16 pupils and a teacher in Dunblane, documents released yesterday reveal.

But social workers failed to speak to the children to check their story until the day of the shootings.

The lapse is one of a series of failings committed by police and other public bodies in the weeks, months and years before the killings that are described in official documents released to the public for the first time.

The information - contained in more than 3,000 pages of witness statements, letters and reports - includes details of how a police officer specialising in child protection wanted a warrant to search for hundreds of pictures of boys taken by Hamilton at summer camps he ran.

Although a long list of charges were drafted by police, no action was taken by prosecutors.

The previous year, a Children's Reporter warned education chiefs and police that a tragedy to children was "almost waiting to happen" after three boys ran away from a summer camp in Dunblane run by Hamilton.

The documents also detail how a senior police officer refused to revoke Hamilton's firearms licence, believing he posed no danger to society.

The papers, prepared for the Cullen Inquiry into the massacre, were originally placed under a 100-year closure order. But Scotland's senior law officer, Lord Advocate Colin Boyd, reviewed that decision and they were made available yesterday at the National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh.

One of the documents is a letter from Strathclyde Police written to the Chief Constable of Central Scotland a week after the shootings. It details how, in the summer of 1995, Hamilton was given permission by the local council to run a boys' football club at Thomas Muir High School, in Bishopbriggs.

On 1 March, 1996 a parent of a boy attending the club contacted the school claiming Hamilton had shown him a gun.

The parent also alleged that Hamilton had offered the boy an 18-certificate video, and told him to keep what he had shown him "secret".

The headteacher contacted Strathclyde Regional Council education department and was told to inform a senior social worker.

On Wednesday, 6 March, a senior social worker, whose identity has been withheld, received a letter detailing the allegations, and referred it to a colleague who was off sick at the time.

According to the document, the senior social worker contacted a principal child care officer in Stirling who said they "had knowledge" of Hamilton and had "received similar complaints in their area". But they added that "nothing had been substantiated".

On Monday, 11 March - two days before the tragedy - the social worker returned from sickness and read the letter on the allegations, "but did not appear to digest the contents in full".

The same day, the headteacher phoned the senior social worker to "express her dissatisfaction and concern" that the matter "did not appear to have been at that stage progressed in any form or fashion".

It was only hours after the massacre that any kind of detailed investigation was begun. Social workers visited the home of the child and another who also attended the club. Both said they had been shown a gun and "approximately ten bullets" in the back of Hamilton's van, which was parked at the school.

The letter continued: "In addition, [child witness one] alleged that on a previous occasion the subject [Hamilton] had shown him a hunting magazine displaying pictures of persons shooting deer, pictures of firearms and ammunition".

The senior social worker was later interviewed by police.

"She frankly admitted that she did not treat the referral as a matter of urgency until the day of the Dunblane incident because she was covering the Strathkelvin area in her capacity as senior social worker and the social worker, [name blanked out], who had been given the referral was off sick until Monday, 11 March 1996," the report for Lord Cullen stated.

The documents lay bare the deep suspicions police held for years about Hamilton's behaviour towards children.

In June 1993 detectives investigated complaints from parents about his youth camps.

They said their children had been forced to wear only "ill-fitting trunks" and were made to carry out strenuous gymnastic exercises while being photographed by Hamilton.

On 9 June, 1993, an unnamed detective constable in the child protection unit at Bannockburn wrote to a senior colleague outlining his concerns. He wrote: "Mr Hamilton has undoubtedly sailed very close to the wind for many years as regards the inappropriateness of his methods of alleged tuition of very young, immature and unsuspecting boys of primary school age.

"However... in view of the evidence available to date Hamilton may have committed offences of lewd, indecent and libidinous practices and behaviour..."

The officer said he also believed Hamilton may have embezzled, as he had boasted of spending £10,000 on camera equipment but was registered as unemployed.

Police drew up a list of ten charges they felt could be brought against Hamilton, but the procurator-fiscal in Stirling decided there was insufficient evidence to prove criminal acts.

Previous probes had been conducted on Hamilton following similar complaints about camps in 1988, 1991 and 1992, but on all occasions prosecutors marked "no proceedings".

Grave concerns were raised the previous year in a letter from the Children's Reporter to Fife Regional Council and Fife Constabulary. The letter was written after three boys, two aged nine and one ten, had run away from a summer camp run by Hamilton at Dunblane High School.

The boys were found sitting late one night on a pavement in Dunblane in their pyjamas. According to police, they were "fed up with the routine of cold showers, terrible food and the general atmosphere".

The reporter wrote: "I feel that the events of 29.6.92 in Dunblane in a sense serve as a warning.

"If the kind of circumstances as described are allowed to continue without some kind of intervention, I consider that other children may be placed at risk.

"In like situations arising unchecked I fear that a tragedy to a child or children is almost waiting to happen."

The files also include evidence from the former deputy chief constable of Central Scotland, Douglas McMurdo, who explained why he did not revoke Hamilton's handgun certificates. This was despite being alerted to an incident in 1989 when Hamilton took a gun to a family's home and showed them how to fire it.

An internal memo from Detective Sergeant Paul Hughes also requested the licence be withdrawn following complaints about the camps.

But Mr McMurdo concluded he "never ever considered Mr Hamilton to be a violent or dangerous person, nor did he do anything which would have given me evidence to revoke his firearms certificate".

He said five firearms incidents involving Hamilton had not been reported to police until after the massacre.

Mr McMurdo said the incident which most concerned him was an allegation that, in January 1996, he pointed an unloaded handgun to a man in his home and pulled the trigger.

"Were there evidence that this allegation was true I would have gone for revocation," he said.

Mr McMurdo resigned in 1996 after his force was harshly criticised following Cullen.

The documents also reveal how a photographic shop owner alerted police after discovering Hamilton was taking hundreds of pictures of scantily-clad boys during gym classes. "At no time did I ever see anything in any of these films other than young boys," he told the inquiry.

A police officer viewed the images but decided there was no criminal content.

Annabel Goldie MSP, the Tory justice spokeswoman, said she hoped lessons could yet be learned from the papers. She said: "Clearly, the disclosure of these papers may help to inform current processes and procedures for assessing individuals.

"This is very topical as the Scottish Parliament is currently considering the Management of Offenders Bill. It has to be hoped that if there are lessons to be learned from what we now know about the circumstances preceding the Dunblane tragedy, these will be picked up as a matter of urgency."

Neither East Dunbartonshire Council, which now has Bishopbriggs in its area, or Glasgow City Council, was able to comment as they did not know where Strathclyde Regional Council archive files were stored.

A spokeswoman for Central Scotland Police said: "The Cullen Inquiry considered fully the issues arising from the Dunblane tragedy and as such Central Scotland Police has no further comment to make. Our sympathies are with the families affected by this tragedy."

Hamilton branded mentally unstable in 1974, report reveals

THOMAS Hamilton was described as mentally unbalanced by a Scouting official as long ago as 1974.

A police report on his involvement with the Scouts told how he was initially regarded as a "polite and intelligent individual" by a local Scout official, but he was dismissed within a year because he was suspected of "improper behaviour with boys".

In 1973, Hamilton became an active member of the 1st Stirlingshire Venture Scouts. In July that year, he became assistant Scout leader and then

was promoted to Scout leader.

But in February 1974, the official received complaints from parents after Hamilton took nine boys from Bannockburn Scouts to Aviemore.

They were supposed to have stayed in a hostel but instead slept overnight in a van in poor weather conditions and the boys were "cold, hungry and frightened". The Scout official warned Hamilton, but two weeks later the same thing happened.

Hamilton claimed the hostel had been overbooked, but the official discovered this was not true and decided to dismiss him.

A letter sent to the Scout Association's warrant department by one of the movement's most senior officials said Hamilton had been suspected of "improper behaviour with boys". The letter quoted a third Scouting official, who was also a consultant surgeon, as saying he considered Hamilton to be "mentally imbalanced".

Hamilton's disturbing behaviour continued when he went on to run his own clubs and summer camps for boys. Over the years, parents made a catalogue of complaints to council officials and police about the way he ran his camps.

He once gave a mother a 15-minute video of his camps, which showed children "exhausted" after gymnastic exercises. She said the children were wearing football shorts, adding: "The camera appeared to pan along the line of children and concentrate on their waists and below."

Boys were also shown wearing only black swimming trunks, hanging from gymnastic hoops. She said she felt this was "way beyond the physical capabilities of children of that age and some appeared close to tears".

A nine-year-old boy who went to a club based at Bannockburn High School told how Hamilton "used to make us wear swimming trunks he brought in for us" while doing gymnastics.

The boy added: "I can remember once when I was in the minibus, Mr Hamilton asked us to guess what kind of club he was a member of.

"We couldn't guess and eventually he told us he was in a gun club. I asked him what he shot and he told me he liked to shoot moving things.

"He told us he had lot of guns but not to tell anybody."

Killer 'was living on credit cards'

THOMAS Hamilton was facing financial meltdown in March 1996.

The former shop owner and failed freelance photographer was living on income support and housing benefit totalling £75 a week and owed more than £8,800.

He had bank overdrafts totalling more than £6,400 and credit card debts of £2,200, according to a report on his finances prepared for the police. It read: "His only means of income was £44 income support, £31 weekly housing benefit and any profits he made from running his boys' clubs at Bannockburn, Dunblane and Bishopbriggs.

"His financial predicament was further worsened by the existence of sheriff's warrants in connection with his council tax debt of £228."

Hamilton had been claiming unemployment benefit, but was reported for working as a photographer while doing so. He denied this when the allegation was investigated, but the benefit was stopped.

Hamilton later sold his camera equipment.

He had four bank accounts and three were substantially overdrawn.

One account, at the Clydesdale Bank, had £577 in it during December 1995, but this was reduced to three pence in four withdrawals, the last on 11 March, 1996, just two days before the shooting.

The report said: "Hamilton was undoubtedly in severe financial difficulties. His total assets ... appear to be three pence whilst he was overdrawn by around £6,472."

It concluded: "The limited movement with the other bank accounts and heavy use of the Barclaycard and Debenhams card is a good indication that Hamilton relied on credit cards for everyday living."

Web links

Lord Cullen's 1996 Public Inquiry report
http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/scottish/dunblane/dunblane.htm
Daily transcripts of Cullen Inquiry
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library3/justice/dunblane/dunblane-00.asp
Related topic

According to this article,the events that I described in 1973 occurred in 1974,but I had definately seen a document,that said 1973.Hmmm,it is like some saying Hungerford happend in 1986 and 1988m,instead of 1987.Anyway,read on at your disguist at that creep.It seems that I was right in saying that Hamilton started his career off as a Scouts staff member,in 1973 and thats right,they were on a trip to the hostel,with him driving the mini-bus.
 
To JWwarren. Please do not misundestand me. I truly am greatful for the boys who came to Europe on Churchill's call for help, and gave their lives, and or health, to help crush the hell of Nazism...

I never, ever, meant to imply that their sacrifice was any less worthy than say, the Brits...

After all, the Brits too had many people who thought 'it's a matter for the continentals, why should we send our boys to die there'? Especially in ww1, but in ww2 also, a fact that Hitler tried to play on when precenting his peace deal after Dunkirk, but good old Churchill was rushed in to quash the mp's who were actually thinking of peace...

My point was that when I hear that all Europeans should be thankful to the US for their freedom, I feel compelled to try to point out that we were all in the same boat, and certainly nobody needs but congratulate each other in a good job done in ridding the world of Hitler and his hellish visions...

I certainly am thankful for every US man, woman, gun, and can of food that reached Europe, or Asia in ww2 in aid to crush the true axis of evil, something so horrible, that it's hard to understand...

And once the desicion to go forth into Iraq was done, I supported it, even though it was against to what most people arround me belived. But I said, once the word go is given, then the best thing to do, is to act in unison, not to try and crack the effort, as the Islamist neo-Jihhadists are looking just for something like that to exploit, and they did succeed in Spain...

So, I appoligize if you felt that I wasnt appreciating the sacrifices that the US made in ww2. I do. I must admit that the books of Stephen Ambrose opened my eyes, although after that I have read much much more, and nowadays, when playing strategy games, kind of find it distaceful playing the axis, even though it's just a game...

And this from a guy, who loved the Wermacht-SS armies kit when building plastic kit models, at the age of 12!!!

I think that the Anglo-Americans were the best army in ww2, for many reasons, and they developed a weapon, that made them potential dictators of the world, the atom bomb.

It is very worrying that it's proliferating, now.... Militarily I see it as a more dangerous developement than the tterrorists, and suicide bombs...

Anyway, I think that the USA has the most energy in the sence of getting things done. and although I preferr Democrat foreign policy over republikan. I still hope one day to be a part of the great liberty of having a gun range of my own, somethign that your precious 2nd ammendment guarantees you!

Hold on to it! It's precious...

I thank your family for the sacrifice they gave against the war of the forces of darkenss in Europe.

Respectfully yours.

Mr poundr.

Here are some pictures to remember those days by...
 

Attachments

  • Americascentury.jpg
    Americascentury.jpg
    35 KB · Views: 11
  • focke wulf attacks 8th airforce.jpg
    focke wulf attacks 8th airforce.jpg
    16.8 KB · Views: 10
  • Mustangmenace.jpg
    Mustangmenace.jpg
    43.8 KB · Views: 11
  • P-38 exellent long range air to air fighter too....jpg
    P-38 exellent long range air to air fighter too....jpg
    33 KB · Views: 8
  • F111 AADVARK.jpg
    F111 AADVARK.jpg
    134.9 KB · Views: 9
Mr poundr,


I appreciate your response on this thread as well as your PM to get over here and read it.

Thanks for the clarification, and I am I can see clearly your views on all that stood against the likes of Hitler (from all parts globally).

I apologize if I came across rather passionately. The guys that fought in that war never really left it completely, and it has always broken my heart to see a veteran break down in tears over friends lost on 60 year old battlefields.


Again, thank you for your explaination, and for sharing the appreciation for all those who sacrificed in that War.


-- John
 
UK firearms ownership

What do you mean you don't have them in the UK because people don't want them? They don't want them because they can't have them. Of course they want them, for the same reasons Americans do. Happiness is a warm gun. You've been told you don't need them, but I don't think the man on the street really believes it.

I don't think you've evolved at all from the "savage" Imperialists you were; I believe the only thing most Brits regret about the empire is that its' gone. Gun control is about control; Thats' why you can't have them.

C'mon now; tell us what sort of firearms you're allowed to own and under what circumstances you're allowed to keep them.

Hmmm? British understatement reigns.

Its' a little like calling a VW Beetle a "Wolfsburg Porsche."

I think you will not get the ban repealed because your Govt doesn't trust you with firearms.

I'm afraid they might be right; They're basically saying you're not civilized enough to properly be trusted with that privilege.

Do you agree with that?

How long will you put up with it is a very critical question.

I can't accept the logic that what happens in the EU will eventually happen in the US. The hell it will.

First thing that has to go is the big dangerous idea that this is all fated to be and the ground once lost can't be taken back.

Have we forgotten how to ask "why?"

And to respond: "That isn't good enough."

There will never be a better time; if there is, you don't want it to be upon you before you're ready for it, considering what things would have to be like for it to be that way (Mad Max indeed...).

Cheers, TF back from holiday.
 
I'm a European (Belgian)

What really opene my eyes was Olek Volgs site; www.a-human-right.com

I'm still reading bits and pieces from both sides of the debate, and I've concluded for myself that if you want to fight gun crime, you have to focus on the crime part, not the guns.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top