How to choose a Fighting Rifle

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tire iron

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There seems to be an enormous amount of threads that all have the same basic theme – “which fighting rifle is best for me?â€

With that in mind – I will attempt to provide a logical way for those that are interested – to choose “which rifle is best†for them.

So – to begin with – let’s define the characteristics of what our “ideal†fighting rifle would possess.

Before proceeding to the criteria - one should consider caliber - but in a very simple way. The only question you need ask about caliber is this: WAS IT A RIFLE CALIBER USED BY SOME MILITARY POWER IN THE LAST 50 OR SO YEARS - AND IS THE AMMO READILY AVAILABLE (so you can stock up on it)?? If the answer is "YES" - then that is all you need to know about the caliber for now.

We will discuss each characteristic in order of PRIORITY – in other words – we will talk about them in order of MOST important down to LEAST important.

#1 – RELIABILITY – our fighting rifle MUST go “bang†every time the trigger is pulled – as long as there is a round in the chamber. This action MUST occur no matter what the environmental conditions are – whether it is raining, snowing, sleeting. blowing, whether it is muddy, dusty, dirty, gritty, grimy – the rifle HAS to function. Reliability being #1 also includes the FEEDING device – whether it is via a “magazine†(like an AK) or a “clip†(like a M1) or “stripper clips†(like a SKS).

#2 – DURABILITY – our fighting rifle MUST be able to handle extremely harsh “combat/field†conditions for extended periods of time with little or no maintenance.

#3 – REPAIRABILITY/FIXABILITY – our rifle must be “repairable†in the field or at home. That means when a part breaks (notice I didn’t say “if†– I said “whenâ€) it must be easy to take out the old broken piece and easy to put in the new piece.

#4 – ERGONOMIC – it must be “easy†to use. The controls should all be within reach of the hands – allowing minimum movement of the hands too. This will make us want to use it more – as we all like things to be “easyâ€. We will not practice as much if we have to “fight†the rifle to get it to do what we want.

#5 – ACCURATE – our rifle must be capable of “minute of bad guy†accuracy – and really no more than that. Almost ALL armed conflict takes place at 100 meters/yards or less (usually a LOT less) – so as long as our rifle can hit an 8†pie plate at 100 meters/yards – then that is all we NEED. (You may WANT more accuracy than that – but that is all you NEED.)

So – using the above criteria – how do the more “popular†fighting rifles “stack up�??

Lets look at a few. Lets start with the AK.

1. The AK is known to be “RELIABLEâ€.
2. The AK is known to be “DURABLEâ€.
3. There are LOTS of spare parts available – and it is an easy rifle to change parts on – so it is “REPAIRABLEâ€.
4. The AK is “so-so†with regards to “ERGONOMICS†– one must work with it more than some other competing designs – but it IS “do-able†– and – since it meets the first three criteria – then it is a worthy rifle for consideration.
5. The AK meets the criteria for “ACCURACY†(just barely – as most of the nearly 100 million AK’s have on average 6 MOA accuracy – however it DOES meet the criteria).

Now lets look at the Mini-14:

1. The Mini-14 is known to be “RELIABLE†– HOWEVER – the magazines have been/are a problem. Ruger will not sell 20 or 30 rounds mags to regular folks – only LE. Aftermarket mags may or may not be reliable (usually they fit in the “may not†category.)
2. The Mini-14 is NOT known to be “DURABLE†(When I was active we trained some Bahamanian Marines. They were all armed with pretty much brand new Mini-14's. We ran lots of patrols with them through swamps and over hill and dale - and did lots of dry and live fire exercises. Before two weeks were up - NOT ONE Mini-14 survived. They were ALL down - and I mean "down" as in would not work because of parts failure/breakage. They were all using "loaner" AR's for the rest of the time as their Mini's went down. Not surprisingly - they/we had no problems or issues with our AR's. Before this I had some 'range time' with a Mini-14 and it was a fun gun to shoot. I felt bad too – as I really liked the Mini-14 when shooting them on a range. Pat Rogers - an instructor at Gunsite - has stated that he has NEVER seen a "Mini" make it through the demanding 4-5 day carbine course that he instructed. NEVER. They always go "down" and the person uses a loaner AR to finish the course with. (We had no problems with our M4’s doing all of the same stuff that we put the Mini's through. Granted – the abuse that our rifles saw was WAY beyond what any “civilian†rifle sees – but the scope of this post is way beyond what civilian rifles are designed for!)
3. The Mini-14 is not “REPAIRABLE†– Ruger made a decision to not sell spare parts for the Mini-14. If it breaks – it must be sent back to the factory for repair.
4. The Mini-14 is “ERGONOMIC†enough.
5. The Mini-14 is “ACCURATE†enough – it shoots about the same as the AK – which is somewhere around 6 MOA or less.

Since the Mini-14 “failed†partially on number 1 and fully on numbers 2 and 3 – it should not be considered as a “fighting rifleâ€. Now – it will make a dandy “home defense†or “LE†rifle that will be stored at home or in the trunk. As in those two roles it will NOT see “hard use†– and will probably work just fine. It just cannot be relied upon to survive hard use – it wasn’t designed to.

Lets look at the Daewoo next:

1. It is “RELIABLEâ€
2. It is “DURABLEâ€
3. It is NOT “REPAIRABLEâ€
4. It is “ERGONOMICâ€
5. It is “ACCURATE†(the one I owned shot 1 MOA)

Since it can’t “pass†#3 – it should not be considered. There are virtually no spare parts available for it. Which is VERY sad – because it is a FANTASTIC rifle. The same thing can be said about other excellent rifles – like the Galil and the FN-FNC, Steyr AUG, SIG 550, etc.

Now lets look at the FN-FAL:

1. RELIABLE
2. DURABLE
3. REPAIRABLE
4. ERGONOMIC
5. ACCURATE

It meets ALL the criteria – so does the M1-a, the M1, the M1 carbine, the AR series, and the HK series. These rifles ALL meet ALL criteria. Obviously some are better in some areas – and some are better in others – but they ALL meet the general criteria.

Notice caliber doesn’t even come into play?? That is because once ALL the 5 criteria are met – THEN one chooses caliber if the choice is available. The reason why this is – is because caliber really doesn’t play that big of role. (I restrict my personal choices of caliber to the "Main 3" - the 7.62x51 NATO (.308 Winchester), the 5.56x45 (.223) and the Russian 7.62x39. Of course the 7mm, 8mm, 7.62x54R, .30 '06, .30 Carbine, 5.45x39 and some others are all worthy calibers - they are just more scarce in general compared to the "Main 3". So my personal choice is to stay with the "Main 3".)


In other words – IF YOU CHOOSE A FIGHTING RIFLE USING THE ABOVE CRITERIA – AND PRACTICE WITH IT OFTEN – YOU WILL BE A FORCE TO BE RECONNED WITH REGARDLESS OF THE CALIBER OF YOUR RIFLE.

Hope this helps,

cheers

tire iron
 
pretty good outline. I use what I've been practicing with the most. I am however in the market for a larger caliber fighting rifle... as I am a bit suspect of the one I have... and the practicing will be more fun anyway :p
 
If you live in the sticks, and have nobody else living in your house, military weapons are fine. If, however, you're not a hermit, a semi-auto shotgun is the way to go. Using shot, you won't penetrate a wall w/killing force, as long as you use low brass rounds. Also, aiming inside a house is really a non-issue. And, (cool factor) do you think a burglar's gonna hang around after they hear you racking the slide on a shotgun? :rolleyes:
 
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I don't see anything where he said which rifle is best for home defense he said
“which fighting rifle is best for me?â€


If you live in the sticks, and have nobody else living in your house, military weapons are fine.

I live in a city of around a million with a wife and dog. Whats wrong with my haveing civilian versions of military weapons?
 
Great outline. Pretty much sums it up. Instead of spending hours, days, weeks puzzling over the rifle, handle a variety that meet the past criteria, get the one that you can afford, and that fits you best, then shoot it.
 
First things I would ask are:
Who would I be fighting?
What fighting would I be doing?
When would I be fighting?
Where would the fighting take place?
Would there be support?

After that your questions 1 thru 4 would be answered.
 
Stay away from mini 14s, the ones i HAD and the ones i have seen are terrible as far as accuracy! my 12ga shot a tighter group at 25yds then the rifle! Try to get a rifle that is fairly common thru out the world and that is still being used, and get parts for, and ammo!
 
"Also, aiming inside a house is really a non-issue. And, (cool factor) do you think a burglar's gonna hang around after they hear you racking the slide on a shotgun"

A pattern inside a house at close range is probably gonna not be to big so you better aim.

If the burglar hears me racking the slide that means I either got to close with an unloaded weapon, or I just shucked a good shell on the ground.
 
Nitram68,

So - what are you looking at getting?? Thanks for the post and for the kind words.



spurrit,

Aren't ALL "tire irons" 'bent'?? Shotguns are beyond the scope of my post. If you would rather have a scatter-gun - no skin off my nose. I do have to agree with "Ed" though - only the SECOND bad guy should hear any "racking the slide on a shotgun". The first guy shouldn't hear anything but the verbal warning before the shot (if that).


Daniel,

Thanks for the post!


natedog,

Thanks for the post and thanks for the kind words.


jacketch,

In the "spirit" of friendly disscussion - would you be so kind as to answer those questions in a couple of different ways and show how that would drastically alter the choice - as I am curious to see the outcome. Thanks for the post.


jerryd,

Thanks for the post.


Ed,

I agree 100% with your analysis! Thanks for the post.


cheers

tire iron
 
First, a mini-14 would never be my first choice of any rifle...be it for TSHTF, hunting or self-defense.

A mini-30 would be a better choice and not by much.

Secondly, there have been plenty of documented incidences where the bad guy has hung around after the 'rack' or with the idea that they were dealing with an "occupational hazard."

Third, I would only consider a mini-14 a formidable weapon if I were to use it to hold up someone and force them to it and I take whatever they had, LOL.

:D
 
There are more rifles than the ones originally listed that will fit the guidelines that were made. I think you could get away with using all sorts of "commercial" rifles in battle if the situation was required. I pretty much have those guidelines for any high-powered rifle I buy.
 
Notice caliber doesn’t even come into play?? That is because once ALL the 5 criteria are met – THEN one chooses caliber if the choice is available. The reason why this is – is because caliber really doesn’t play that big of role.

I agree 100%.

Civillians aren't constrained to using FMJs.

Soft point,Ballistic tip, or hollow point bullets are going to be much better manstoppers than FMJs on any day and in just about any imagineable situation.
 
How about running the SKS through your 5 for a noob?

Robert

Porter,

The SKS meets all those requirements as well.

I.G.B.
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm not sure I agree with this. I'd say that the SKS meets 4 of the 5 listed requirements, all except ergonomics. Personally I think that the ergonomics of the SKS are downright awful. The sights and stripper clip reloading absolutely suck. The rest of the controls are only slightly better. The SKS's controls might still be good enough for you, but they're not nearly as convenient as some of the other designs. You'd be wise to try one out yourself before you assume that it's okay.

Take my advice with a grain of salt, though. I haven't yet found a rifle with great ergonimics, and I know of only three military designs that I'd call decent. (Those would be the AR, the FAL, and the No. 4 Enfield.) Maybe I'm just impossible to please.
 
HTG,

The SKS meets the same requirements as the AK47 does. The sights are just as bad, but with a longer sight radius, and many people have found the stripper clips to be very easy and quick to load.

Not to mention the SKS has an advantage over the AK in the department of the safety mech. The SKS has an easily manipulated safety, and its quiet in operation. Can't say that for the AK.

Doesn't mean that the SKS beats the AK, just that I am including it under many of the same conditions as the AK.

I.G.B.
 
Personally, I'd say that the AK fails the ergonomics test too. But hey, I'm hard to please ;)


I like your analysis technique, tire iron. Your thinking is a step above most other peoples' I've seen.
 
Out of curiosity, what are the common types of problems that the mini-14's run into that puts them down during the abuse. Is abuse meant to signify the number or rate of round fired or an external physical pressure like being thrown around or used to smash in doors, let people stand on them or something like that. My previous impressions have been that barring a flimsy barrel, weak rear sights and crappy aftermarket mags the mini-14 shared the robustness inherent in the design of the M1 or M-14.
 
mini-14 shared the robustness inherent in the design of the M1 or M-14.
The Mini-14 looks like a toy when compared to a M1 or M14. The mini-14 is comparable to a M1 carbine which is still sturdier and more overbuilt than the mini-14.
 
FN-LAR, Brit L1A1, Israeli L1A1,etc.... The #1 choice of over 60 nations
worldwide and with good reason. It is the battle rifle that the US should be using. It WORKS!! Period!
JMHO!!

One word concerning Mini-14's
JUNK!!!
(my SKS shoots circles around every Mini-14 that I have ever seen)
(and thats not saying much).
 
Tireiron,

I like your analysis. It goes to the heart of the practical issues. I'm preferring the SKS myself, and for more than the points you mention.

First, it is very inexpensive right now, so I can devote more money to ammo, accessories, and refinements.

Second, of all the military weapons on your list, it is the only one designed at inception to be semi-auto. I don't know if it makes a difference or not, but the design hasn't been altered to accomodate American laws.

Third, as a Kalifornian I am allowed (for the time being, anyway :cuss: ) to own an SKS with little difficulty.

Truth is, I enjoy the MBRs, but I see little need for me to own one. That doesn't mean I don't want them-I just don't need one for their intended purpose. And if I ever do, then the SKS will serve me quite well.
 
NavahoNPaleFace,

Thanks for the post.


Domino,

The criteria are there for you to use for your purposes. The great thing about it - it some rifles that make "my" list may not make yours, and vice versa! Thanks for the post.


itgoesboom,

THANKS for answering "porterdogs" question!!


crackedbutt,

thanks for the post!


HeadlessThompsonGunner,

The cool thing/bad thing about "ergonomics" is that what fits you - may not fit someone else - and vice versa.

However - I do agree that there is NO longarm in the world that I am aware of that is "perfect" with regards to "ergonomics".

Maybe I'm just impossible to please.

Without some people (like yourself) with that attitude - there would not be improvements made in ANYTHING - so - I am glad you have that attitude - as that drives the quest for improvement.

Thanks for the kind words - and thanks for posting.



itgoesboom,

I agree with your analysis of the SKS.




student,


Alot of the small parts and springs is what I have seen fail. The "big" parts seem to hold up OK - but the smaller parts don't. Bad thing is - when a part breaks on you Mini - you have to send it back to Ruger.


cb,

Right on.


"yote",

I agree that the FN is great firearm - but I also like the AR series - especially the M4.

Thanks for the post.


The AnitBubba,

First off - thanks for the kind words and for the post.

Secondly - it appears that you have made a good logical choice based upon YOUR needs - so - CONGRADULATIONS! :D

Keep training!


cheers

tire iron
 
To all of you who trash the Mini-14, I must disagree from experience. There's nothing toy about it in my estimation. It's just smaller than a M14. The problem with mags is the cheap mags don't have the feed lips hardened properly so they do bend.

The fighting rifles I like include M1 Garand, M14, K98k Mauser, No.1 Mk3 and No.4 Mk 1 Lee Enfields. That's just me. But, SHTF, I'm liable to be using the same sporting rifles I'm liable to be using any other time, depending on what I'm doing and where.
 
tire iron,
thanks for the organized and thoughtful outline, I have a '76 Mini14 that I've rarely fired. I had no idea that they were that dreadful. Are there ways to upgrade it's utility and reliability or is that throwing good money after bad?
Maybe it's time to sell and put the money towards buying an M1A,FAL or perhaps a SAIGA. :scrutiny:
 
The SKS sights are...well, crude, but will get the job done out to 100-150 Yds. Never meant to be a long-range rifle. Ergos aren't too bad, and I can reload with the 10-round strippers almost as fast as my M-1 with its En-Bloc clips. Don't have an AK-xx, so no comment there.

Also have a Mosin-Nagant M-44 carbine. Setting to safe/fire is a real pain, with that stout mainspring. But it will ALWAYS go bang! And it is fast to reload, too with 5-round stripper clips. Bolt opening can be a bit stiff, depending on ammo and rifle condition.

My Marlin .30/30 is fun, and I can shoot 1, load 1. But I wouldn't want to fend off a real thundering herd with it. Slowest to reload if you run it dry.

Sometimes, parts for the Mosin-Nagants can be a bit hard to find, but parts for eveything thing else I have are very readily available.
 
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