How to choose a Fighting Rifle

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Mini-14's are not nearly as bad as they're made out to be. Just a couple of low-priced upgrades and the groups tighten dramatically.

http://www.greatwestgunsmithing.com/

Click on the link that says "Mini-14".

Trigger Jobs
Our trigger jobs are affordable and the best around! Your trigger will be adjusted to 3 to 4 pounds of pull weight and break cleanly. Best place to start for accuracy improvements and more enjoyable shooting. $45

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Our most popular! Your rifle is treated to a trigger job, your stock bedded, gas port bushings and a recoil buffer! $100

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For the serious accuracy seeker! All of package A plus - barrel cut and crown, plus atomized aluminum added to the bedding, muzzlebrake or flash hider permanently installed (does not include parts) $170

In my opinion, all a Mini-14 needs is the trigger job ($45), a recoil buffer which you can install cheaper yourself than you can have them do it for, and a flash hider that you can fit for cheaper. All you have to do is find out how. It ain't rocket science.
 
You didn't mention anything about firepower, although you did allude to it when you said "Ruger will not sell 20 or 30 rounds mags to regular folks".

The Mosin Nagant 91/59 carbine would meet all those requirements easily, but when up against good shooters with AKs or a FALs for example, the low capacity bolt action would be at a bit of a disadvantage.
 
Ergonomics are going to be subjective to each individual person. But that is why this is guideline to choose what is best for you.

I don't agree with keeping it to the 'big' three. I want the best ammo availability, and around here the 'big three' are probably .30-06, .30-30, and .270. The key should be regional availability. IMHO, .30-06 is probably the best choice around here, so that is what I would want my rifle to be in.

And you forgot the best ones, the ones based on the M1 action (M1, M14, M1A) ;)
 
2. The Mini-14 is NOT known to be “DURABLE†(When I was active we trained some Bahamanian Marines. They were all armed with pretty much brand new Mini-14's. We ran lots of patrols with them through swamps and over hill and dale - and did lots of dry and live fire exercises. Before two weeks were up - NOT ONE Mini-14 survived. They were ALL down - and I mean "down" as in would not work because of parts failure/breakage.

I read this a lot, enough to put it into the "probably true Internet hearsay" category.

My question is, exactly what's breaking? Something that can be stocked, or one of the Ruger-won't-sell-you parts?
 
mustanger98,

To all of you who trash the Mini-14, I must disagree from experience.
Nothing wrong with that. Its (still) a free country. Lets for the sake of discussion say that your Ruger Mini-14 is all you say it is (and I do believe that it IS all you say it is) - there is an almost INSURMOUNTABLE problem with the Mini. SPARE PARTS. Try and buy a bolt, or even an extractor - or try and buy some of the fire control parts (you know - parts like the hammer, sear, etc.). YOU CAN'T. Ruger won't sell them to you. If you are comfortable trusting your life and the lives of your loved ones to a rifle that you can keep some vital spare parts for - go ahead.

I think some people believe I have a "bone" to pick with regards to the Mini - well - I don't. I *WISH* it were a more "durable" piece that one could also stock spare parts for. Heck - just being able to stock spare parts would be fine - but Ruger won't sell them!

As I originally posted - the Mini would probably serve just fine as a LE or "home defense" firearm - as it won't see the hard use that it would as a "fighting rifle".

BTW - I also like and have/currently own M1's, SMLE No. IV Mk 1, Mauser98k, etc.

Thanks for the post.


homeka45,

It all depends on what you want your "mini" for - it appears that since you don't shoot it much is will serve you just fine.

Thanks for the kind words and thanks for the post.


foghornl,

Yep - the SKS can do the job if you do your job - same with the M1, et al.

Thanks for the post.


mustanger98,

The main problem I see regarding the Mini has never been its accuracy (or lack thereof) - the biggest problem is SPARE PARTS.

You can throw more money at the mini to make it more accurate - but that will not overcome the main problem.

I am glad you like your mini - what I DON'T want to do is turn this thread into a "MINI-14" thread. You can disagree with my posts if you want - but PLEASE lets let this "mini" issue alone. I have stated my thoughts/opinions/facts and you have stated yours.


Texian Pistolero,

Glad the AK works for you - I agree - the safety is the biggest issue. But for my likes even if the safety were fixed - for me it would still fall way short of being "extremely ergonomic".

Thanks for the post.


DMK,


I did not include firepower for a very specific reason. Superior tactics can overcome firepower. What I mean by that is this - 6 "highly" skilled men with bolt actions will "take the field" from 12 "unskilled" men with fully or semi auto rifles - by using superior tactics.

Granted - if the skill level and tactical competancy are equal - the men with more "bullets in the box" have an advantage.....but it still rests with the man - not the tools (as long as they meet the 5 criteria).

Thanks for the post.


jefnvk,

I don't agree with keeping it to the 'big' three. I want the best ammo availability, and around here the 'big three' are probably .30-06, .30-30, and .270. The key should be regional availability. IMHO, .30-06 is probably the best choice around here, so that is what I would want my rifle to be in.

You are right! Looks like your "Main 3" are different than mine - and that is "OK". (In fact - your "Main 3" can probably be called the "Big 3"! LOL!)

Thanks for the post!!


lee n. field,

My question is, exactly what's breaking? Something that can be stocked, or one of the Ruger-won't-sell-you parts?

What I saw break was rear sight bases, rear sight windage pins, a couple of fire control parts (hammer, sear, pins, springs), saw a cracked "op rod" (where the 'charging handle' is welded on), extractors, extractor springs, and ejector springs.

Hope this helps. Thanks for the post.


cheers

tire iron
 
The kalshnikov safety is ergonomic if you have big ass winter gloves on. Having tried to operate a conventional safety with winter gloves, I have to say the AK one is tons easier. There is no fumbling at all. Since the safety is nearly the size of a crowbar, it is very unambiguous what position it is in.

That being said, I generally leave it off safety except to transport it because I always forget to flip the safety back off when I shoulder it (since there is nothing to block my finger and remind me that it is safe before I fire).

The rest of the gun is wonderful for shooting and very comfortable. No complaints.
 
I put something similar together for 'Assault Rifle: the Development of the Modern Military Rifle and its Ammunition' - details on my website :cool: - except that it covers the military rather than civilian use of weapons, so some of the criteria are different. It goes like this:

"From all of the above it is possible to draw up a specification for the characteristics of an 'ideal' rifle, common to all calibres and even regardless of whether the preferred type has a traditional or bullpup layout, as follows:

1. Maximum reliability, even under the most adverse conditions. This also includes durability; tolerance of the kind of rough treatment common in warfare. Reliable functioning requires an action which is protected as far as possible from the ingress of dirt, and designed to expel any dirt which does get in. There should be a surplus of power available to drive the action and positive extraction, which implies a piston-type gas operation (preferably with an adjustable valve). Cleaning equipment should be provided in a compartment somewhere on the rifle.

2. Maximum ease of use for both right and left-handed users (few weapons score well at this). All controls should be ambidextrous, and all fall readily to hand and be operated in an instinctive way. It is common to combine the safety catch with the single shot/automatic fire selector, but this is arguably not ideal; a safety catch needs to be instantly and silently flipped on and off without moving the hand from the firing position and is best given just that function to do. (It could perhaps be a spring-loaded flap located within the trigger guard which has to be pushed to one side before the trigger can be pulled; it is then unnecessary to have to remember to switch it on and off.) The fire selector should be different, perhaps the ideal being the Steyr AUG's trigger control; normal pull for single shots, heavy pull for automatic fire; again, no switches to remember. The magazine release catch needs to be convenient to use by the hand grasping the magazine, but must not be easily hit by accident. The magazine should also be easy to locate in the magazine well, and click into place with a simple vertical push, without needing to be rocked from side-to-side or front-to-back.

3. Compactness for use in vehicles and in street-fighting, combined with a long enough barrel to provide the ballistics required to retain maximum effectiveness out to at least 300 metres. This implies either a bullpup layout or a folding/telescoping stock. In the latter case, care needs to be taken to ensure that the stock is quickly and easily extended, but is comfortable to use and remains rigid despite much use and abuse.

4. A flexible sight mounting system, which can accept a standard telescopic sight or night sights, but also has simple iron sights for emergencies. The ability to fit a range of accessories such as grenade launchers, torches, laser pointers etc is also important.

5. Other issues include:
a. a magazine hold-open device, which holds the bolt back when the last shot has been fired. This would seem obvious, but an astonishing number of weapons do not have it; the German G3, HK rifles generally, SIG and the original FAMAS are among the culprits (the later FAMAS has it). Their users only discover that the magazine is empty when they pull the trigger and nothing happens.
b. a trigger pull light and crisp enough to permit accurate firing on semi-automatic (unimportant in fully automatic fire, which should be for short-range emergencies only; in most circumstances, a trained rifleman will score more hits with rapid semi-automatic fire).
c. a charging handle (accessible to both hands, of course) which can also be used to force home a reluctant cartridge, or to kick a stuck case out of the chamber.
d. a trigger guard which permits the use of mittened hands; either one which can be pushed out of the way, or a full-hand guard like the Steyr AUG and the latest FAMAS.
e. a forward handguard shielded from heat build-up.
f. A design which enables the gun to be quickly and easily field-stripped for cleaning, without the risk of losing small parts or reassembling them in the wrong order

There is another important factor which is difficult to describe objectively, and that is the general handling of the weapon. The pistol grip and hand guard should be well shaped to provide a good grip, and the stock should provide a comfortable cheek rest. The gun should feel well-balanced, and come up to the aim naturally. The problem is that people differ in their views on this and, in particular, proponents of traditional rifles dislike bullpups, and vice versa. Finally, and bearing in mind that it is increasingly common to fit accessories of various types thereby adding noticeably to the weight, the weight of the basic rifle should be kept as low as is compatible with durability."

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
I will choose from what I have on had. I think I woud reach for the Shotgun first. Short 18" barrel very effective at short ranges or indoor.

I aslo like to throw two other guns into the mix. My Ishapore 2A. Very acurate, very reliable. You can get 308 almost anywhere on the planet.

a plain jane Mosin M38. small, light and packs a considerable punch at ranges under 200 yards. Easy to work on . I carry an assortment of most spare parts for the Mosin but never needed them.

But if I had to go to fight, I would have to pick the SKS. Never fails and point where I shoot it.

ZM
 
I absolutly ADORE my shotgun for home defense. But when it comes to a "SHTF" type of arrangment I can carry a LOT more rifle ammo that shotshells. And that makes a difference to me. I also REALLY hate seeing things like this:

"Also, aiming inside a house is really a non-issue. And, (cool factor) do you think a burglar's gonna hang around after they hear you racking the slide on a shotgun"

At indoor ranges with buckshot you are looking at a fist-sized pattern AT BEST. Really, i prefer a smaller pattern anyways. But this myth about shotguns sending out some kind of "cone of death" is the fruit of ignorance and really leads a lot of people astray. The idea that badguys run away at the sound of a racking slide is just silly. Also, it meant that your gun either not ready to rock in the first place OR you just shucked out a shell. The only sound someone is gonna hear in my house is the tiny snick of the safety being disengaged (and thats if they are superman). Otherwise they will get a verbal warning (if applicable) while looking at the wrong end of an 870, followed by a very loud bang (if applicable).

A home defense shotgun is for shooting. It isnt for scaring people or looking cool. There isnt time for either one when it comes to defense. ANd yes, you most certainly have to aim. A miss with a shotgun isnt any better than a miss with a .22
 
Oh come on C_Yeager, everyone knows that every time you pick up a shotgun, open a door, round a corner, see a badguy,talk, or see a bear, you're supposed to shuck the slide on your shotgun, if you don't, you're just not tacticool like the people in the movies.

You can also expect to make hits everytime using a pistol gripped shogun shot from the hip that will throw the badguy through he nearest plate glass window. :D
 
You can also expect to make hits everytime using a pistol gripped shogun shot from the hip that will throw the badguy through he nearest plate glass window.

I don't see any plate glass windows here, so it'd have to throw 'em a long way. :neener:

Strange to me that the Mini-14 was put through the criteria, but not the AR-15.

If I need to grab a "fighting rifle", it will be my AR.

:uhoh: :scrutiny: Okay, so now this thread goes from avoiding becoming a Mini-14 thread, to just another AR thread. Let's don't do that either.

I think I'm gonna start another thread in just a minute so as to take the Mini-14 parts issue into it's own thread.
 
Spurrit said:If you live in the sticks, and have nobody else living in your house, military weapons are fine. If, however, you're not a hermit, a semi-auto shotgun is the way to go. Using shot, you won't penetrate a wall w/killing force, as long as you use low brass rounds. Also, aiming inside a house is really a non-issue. And, (cool factor) do you think a burglar's gonna hang around after they hear you racking the slide on a shotgun?

Spurrit you should be Gun Rag writer, it normally takes a pro to get that much mis-information, and myth into a rant.

You wall penetration idea is .......... Wrong

I think you meant low base round? Either way that has little to do with how well the projectile/projectiles defeat barriers. One thing for sure the height of the brass the manufacture uses to make the round is not relevant.

Criminals are reckless, stupid, and desperate. Many have ignored the sound of slide racking. They really have no respect for low brass rounds :neener:

Also as a FYI 223. 5.56 NATO fired from a rifle as hard to believe as it maybe seem to be are contained quite well in typical residential structures. There is a substantial amount of information searchable on the Internet that backs this up.

We really need to get a Sticky on this one: YOU HAVE TO AIM WITH SHOTGUNS TO HIT ANYTHING JUST LIKE ALL OTHER GUNS. :banghead:

The spread on even open choke shotguns at indoor household ranges is not much bigger than your fist. You have to aim period.
 
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I've put less than 60 rounds total through my '76 series-180 Mini-14 and the windage pin for the rear sight disappeared. Just anecdotal evidence to back up what tire iron said. Frontline duties have fallen to the 870, M1 and M39. Soon to have an AR15 in the stable.
 
Try and buy a bolt, or even an extractor - or try and buy some of the fire control parts (you know - parts like the hammer, sear, etc.). YOU CAN'T. Ruger won't sell them to you.

Uhhh. The extractor is a part the Ruger sells. There's altogether too much that they won't. For the Mini, I think it's anything in the trigger group, and the bolt and firing pin, possibly the op rod.

What I saw break was rear sight bases, rear sight windage pins, a couple of fire control parts (hammer, sear, pins, springs), saw a cracked "op rod" (where the 'charging handle' is welded on), extractors, extractor springs, and ejector springs.

Sight base? Standard or Ranch? The sight pins are just roll pins, that shouldn't be a show stopper. Extractor, extractor spring, ejector spring etc. are all available parts, but it's not something that you'd want to fix in the field.

Hope this helps. Thanks for the post.

Thank you. It's been helpful.

Anyone want a Mini? I think I'll get an AK instead.
 
My choice for afighting rifle would be one of the Kalashnikov persuasion, followed by the Simionov persuasion and last, but CERTAINLY not least, the Mosin-Nagant persuasion.

Sure, they are cheap and ugly and bulky and...reliable, powerful, robust and rugged.
I don't think you can ask for better rifle. You'll notice that while the US spent a lot of money fixing the AR platforms. The Soviets managed to keep the AK in the same form minus a few changes here and there.
Cheap and Rugged is mah buddy. I might also mention that I am not a rich man yet and that school and work take most of my time. I've got no time for guns/rifles that don't work.
 
Well in that case I'd have to go with a Garand or an '03,because if you think about it The M-1 is one tough rifle and is chambered in a round that's very plentiful,the '03 has more long range accuracy on it's side,but if we're talkin' about hallway distances then I'd go with a Marlin 795 22.Lr Carbine.

(Go ahead and bash me)

I know a lot of people sneer at the thought of using a 22.Lr to defend themselves but let me just state one thing.

A 22.Lr that finds it's mark (I.e.head shots) will drop somebody just as quick as one gut shot from a 12 gauge or a chest shot from a centerfire battle rifle.

Plus a rimfire semi-auto (The marlin Model 60 and 795) are just as tough sometimes tougher than a centerfire rifle.

Think about it this way they aren't that much of a hassle and are pretty easy to repair.
 
Tire Iron,

I am glad to see you here, sharing with this group. I think your presentation is typical of your posts. Non biased, practical, and deals with the basics. If folks can get past your not endorsing their pet caliber/rifle/cartridge, then they might learn something.
 
Hey dude all I'm sayin' is whatever works works,and whatever is closest at hand and you have the most ammo for. A 22.lr is by no means a man stopper,But to quote Col. Cooper "A 22. In The Tear duct beats a 9mm to the collar bone" Besides I'm a poor boy from Kentucky I can't afford milsurp ammo to plink with.
 
I think most of us are looking at a rifle that would work if we were fighting, we did not see any body in full attack mode or anything.........

For my uses,
SKS with Tech-Sight. With this one mod it is quite accurate, MO man easily.
It is plenty powerfull for my in city living.

I have a 308 mauser, will be getting a diffrent one soon. I prefer a bolt action in 308 for me, more likely to aim each shot, also don't keep as much ammo on hand so make it count. I am working on a scout rifle concept, stripper clips, peep sights and what not.

Very nice original post and thread.

Tony
 
Okay, so now this thread goes from avoiding becoming a Mini-14 thread, to just another AR thread. Let's don't do that either.

Huh?

I was just wondering how a thread about "fighting rifles" could go 37 posts without considering the AR platform. I have "had" several Mini-14s, and presently have a Garand, a Moisin Nagant (91/59), a "pseudo scout" Ishapore Enfield, an SKS 59/66, a 336, an 1894C, and a Remington 7400. I also have a Winchester 1300. Any of these would "do the job" if I needed them to, and I enjoy shooting them, just as I enjoy all of my rimfires.

Yet, if I was in need of a "fighting rifle", it would be my Bushmaster Dissipator. It meets all of the criteria of the original post (IMHO), and is always ready with a 30 round mag in the magwell and another 30 rounder in a butt-stock carrier.
 
I must respectfully disagree with some of the mini-bashing I have seen in this thread.

I would like to know what parts are breaking inside the mini at this carbine course. I realise you are putting the rifle through more than the avreage civilian and rifles are prone to breakage, but I do have a hard time beliveing the AR is night and day more reliable in these conditions.

I personally shot over 2400 raccoons/foxes/coyotes/pests in the last 2 years with my mini, without any problems at all. Distances ranging from 20-150yards. Of course I miss occasionally, but it's not because of the mini. I miss just as much with my super trackdriving 10/22.

The notion that a Mini-14 feels like a toy is a joke. I personally own 2 mini's and have shot countless numbers of them. Not once would I ever describe a Mini as feeling like a toy. I would however describe a gun such as an AR-7 as a toy. My mini's any others I have shot have felt quite solid, aside from a rattling noise from the front sling mount tapping the gas block.

The magazine issue IMHO is a dead issue. Since the ban has expried you can easily get quality hi-cap aftermarket mags (PMI, John Mason. Ruger) for realtively cheap. I even purchased some of the USA 20 and 30rd mags and played around with the feed lips and got them to feed perfectly every time.

There are very vaid points brought up about the mini's accuracy. It's not tackdriver range queen. It's not a long range rifle. I don't think anyone has ever made the claim a mini was either. My mini's shoot about 2 MOA with less than 100 invested in each gun. I can guarentee you this however, if you stand in a field from 0-350 yards away from me and I have a mini, I will hit you in in 1 shot (no doubt in my mind). My local range has a 300 yard range with steel person silloettes on the 300yard mark hill side. I can consistantly tag them all day long without fail. It may not be a killshot every time, but I guarentee it would take the fight out of most people.

A mini can be made much more accurate (sometimes AR levels) for under $200 easily as stated by a previous poster.

Often times people who claim that the mini is inaccurate have not spent enought time to "feel" the rifle out. It took me about 2 weeks to find what kind of ammo my mini liked, to find out what scope it wouldn't beat up on too much. After that my mini's would shoot like a dream.

After reading this, it has probably become obvious that I am a "mini fanboy" , but every time I see something like this it makes me sick. People don't realise a mini is really a diamond in the rough. :)


Edit: If I were choosing a rifle to go into battle with, it would be an AK varant, or an M14. Everything else IMO isn't as tough, not semi-auto, and lacks .30 cal power.
 
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