How to deal with an AD?

[HankL]

A very wise shooter once said, "There are two kinds of shooters. Those who have had an ND, and those who are going to have one."

I would like to know who said this. I's been quoted many a time and I do not agree with it.
Powderman, God has his hands full. Do not depend on his good graces to keep you from having NDs when you are sitting at home in a no stress situation.
I can say that I've been at this for 45+ years and have never had a ND.
You are close to having a ND any time you have a firearm in your hands.
Pay attention and be safe.
Edited to add:
It is not my purpose to flame anyone with this post. If we were to lead people to believe that every shooter had at least one ND in their future where would that take us? A total ban of firearms in apartments would not seem unreasonable eh?

 

[WT]

StephenT - I commend you for bringing this accident to our attention. Thankfully no one was injured. We all can learn something from it.

Yes, I believe it was an accident - according to the standards of my state. I think too many people are willing to crucify others for having an accident, making a mistake.

That said, I would repair any damage and keep my mouth shut. I would take a day off and go the range and have a qualified instructor review my firearms handling techniques. Sometimes a review is good. I have 2-3 reviews a year just to maintain safe firearms handling techniques. Formal competition is also a good way to maintain firearms handling competence.

Good luck.

 

[StephenT]

Well, my neighbors one floor up were home last night and didn't come knocking on my door. What they don't know won't hurt them. I've been around weapons for many years, and it took just a moment of distraction for me to make a very serious mistake, one that could have been fatal if the 5.56 round had travelled horizontally out of my apartment window and across the street. That nightmare scenario would have been more likely with a handgun. In hindsight, I should have left that loaded magazine elsewhere while I operated and cleaned the rifle. It was just too easy to pop in the loaded magazine instead of the other empty one I had there.

 

[boltaction]

Constant vigilence. You cannot let your attention wander when you have a firearm in hand. And yes, I agree with HankL that there are NO AD's, just ND's. When that gun goes off, it is YOUR FAULT. I have been close. I have picked up my Glock that I was JUST SURE was unloaded, only to drop the mag, and break into a cold sweat. Those NRA safety rules are FOR A REASON.

Boltaction
http://www.individ.us
The blog for rugged anti-collectivists

 

[DFBonnett]

First thing you do is admit it wasn't an AD it was an SD, stupid discharge. I can say that because I have done it. Fix the damage and then obey the rules of firearms handling from now on.

 

[HankL]

Fix the damage and then obey the rules of firearms handling from now on.

Are you a surgeon DF? Can you restore life and limb in some mystical way ? How can you say

Fix the damage

Do you have any idea of the damage that is possible in this situation?
I am not going to drop this.

OBEY THE RULES OF FIREARMS HANDLING NOW

Or leave them alone.

 

[B36]

Holy

Stephen made a mistake. Many firearms people have had a gun go bang when they expected a click. Stephen was very fortunate, neither he nor anyone else was hurt.

To rant is your right, but I really do not see where it accomplishes very much.

Oh, PS, remember Murphy exists even for the holy ones.

 

[rust collector]

Teachable moment

I've never figured out what good barking at someone who's messed up did. I suspect it just comes out of a sense of frustration, because these things shouldn't happen, but they do. We like to think our mantras will protect us, but folks continue to light up that first cigarette, drive home from the party when they shouldn't, and trust to luck for population control.

It takes a lot of courage to talk about our mistakes, but that is part of the solution. The next part is failure analysis and executing a plan to insure safety in the future. And heaven help anyone who doesn't learn something from these incidents.

I won't even function test a firearm in my home with a live round. Each gun is cleared first thing when picked up, dry firing is at a garbage can in the basement, and each gun is wiped down, checked and stored under lock and key. That is my plan, and reading about someone else's AD helps me to realize how important it is to follow it every time.

 

[psyopspec]

I won't ostracize you for an AD, cause I've known good shooters that have had them. But if it were me, I'd be taking a good hard look at my future in firearms ownership. I do believe its possible to go an entire shooting lifetime without an AD or ND (as some on this board are close to doing). This being a free country, how you deal with the aftermath is up to you. Glad no one got hurt.

I wonder if the antis ever look at this board and find ammo for their cause in the form of AD stories and the equally damning mild reactions from some of the posters.

 

[shep854]

Having had an apartment ND many years ago, I can tell you that StephenT is beating himself up worse than anyone else. Rather than lapsing into paranoia, the thing to do is to LEARN from it and not let it happen again.

 

[HankL]

Shep, I don't think that anyone is trying to beat up on Stephen T.
His thread seems to have inspired several of us to comment on how easy we, as a group, forgive and dismiss these errors. To Stephen, I apologize for bringing this up on your thread. I respect you for posting about your ND.

To the touchy feely group, please Google "gunshot wound pictures", view for a while and try to imagine your friends and family as the subjects. Think long and hard about how you will handle your firearms.

B36, Mr. Murphy may catch up with me again but he knows how my boot feels on his neck. You want to hear about his ND? No, I'm not the least bit holy.

Bless you one and all but BE SAFE and think about what you are doing.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been lucky so far because I know my limitations and I simply do not own or handle any firearm I feel uncomfortable with. This includes single action semis, AR-15's, Remington shotguns and anything with too light a trigger pull. Double action Revolvers, semis with Sig-style decockers, Mosins, leverguns and shotguns with tang safeties, and other firearms with very clear, open and obvious safety systems are my favorites.

The only AD I've been involved with came from a person who shall not be named here. This person was cleaning a DA/SA semi and fired a round by accident. The round just happened to hit the cabinet in the trailer where we kept a stockpile of propane cartridges! The resulting explosion (thank the Lord) blew out the oil lanterns and only knocked her out for awile rather than knocking her out and burning her up. So you've got to watch these things even out in the middle of nowhere, Alaska.

 

[SkunkApe]

I've never figured out what good barking at someone who's messed up did. I suspect it just comes out of a sense of frustration, because these things shouldn't happen, but they do.

These things don't "happen". People cause them. I thought this board was for people who preach "personal responsibility". If you can't restrain yourself from occasionally accidently discharging firearms, maybe the responsible thing to do is not to own firearms.

Its not so much for the current violater, but for potential future violaters, People who accidently fire firearms inside of populated buildings should be publicly dressed down as an example and warning to others who are lax on safety.

I am so sick of this "we're all for personal responsibility, but if you accidently shoot your gun off, well that's OK, it happens to everybody sooner or later" BS.

Who here can say that they have NEVER had either an ND or have come VERY close to having one?

I can certainly say that, and I'd hope that every responsible gun owner can.

 

[E36M3]

I applaud the originator of the thread for being honest, but this thread is starting to bother me. I'd hate to see the reactions from the opposition on some of our thoughts.
I can honestly say, along with millions of other gun owners, that I've never had an "accident" nor will I ever. It's not within the realm of possibilities. Those who have or think that they might need to rethink firearm ownership altogether. Many of the "anti's" don't trust themselves so it's a good thing that they don't own firearms.
This is my politically incorrect answer. Safety is number one and there is no flexibility. Please don't be offended by my post, but I strongly feel that it needed to be laid out without compromise.

 

[pax]

Today, after returning from the gun show, I accidently shot off a round from my new Olympic Arms Ar-15.

My best shooting buddy's high-school sweetheart, the sister of one of our mutual friends, was killed by an AD that happened just like that. She was at home lying in bed reading a book. Her nine month old son was lying in the bed next to her. Her husband was in the living room watching TV.

Across the street in a different apartment complex, a young man was excitedly playing with his brand new AR14. With some foolish lack of thought, he chambered a round and for some reason even he couldn't explain, pulled the trigger. The bullet went through his wall, across the street, through the wall of her bedroom and into Marnie's brain. It killed her instantly. The baby wasn't hurt. Not directly anyway.

For a moment of stupidity, the young man spent time in jail and will never be allowed to own a gun again for the rest of his life. Marnie's husband and child both lost even more.

pax

 

[why_me]

those are 4 rules you must never forget

There is a loaded gun in the safe. It scares me that it is there. I am always thinking what if it goes off. My wife has it pointed in a safe direction if it does.
Im just a little too paranoid of guns to ever have a ND or AD happen.

powderman said

1. ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. PERIOD.

Always treat each and every firearm like it can load itself if given the chance. Even if you just put it together.

2. KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO SHOOT.

If you don't touch the trigger the gun can't shoot. Period.

3. NEVER POINT YOUR MUZZLE AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO KILL OR DESTROY.

This is perhaps the rule that saved your life here. The gun was pointed away from you, at least. And thank God the construction stopped the bullet.

4. BE SURE OF YOUR BACKSTOP AND WHAT IS BEYOND.

Where is the bullet going to go after it goes through what you're aiming at?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You've explained that you had an ND. If you could explain how you had an ND in more detail, it might help others avoid the same fate.

 

[torpid]

...a young man was excitedly playing with his brand new AR14. With some foolish lack of thought, he chambered a round and for some reason even he couldn't explain, pulled the trigger. The bullet went through his wall, across the street, through the wall of her bedroom and into Marnie's brain. It killed her instantly... For a moment of stupidity, the young man spent time in jail and will never be allowed to own a gun again for the rest of his life. Marnie's husband and child both lost even more.

But according to some attitudes on this thread, let's not beat up on that guy too much, I mean, everybody's allowed one "inevitable" ND, right?

I've never figured out what good barking at someone who's messed up did. I suspect it just comes out of a sense of frustration, because these things shouldn't happen, but they do. We like to think our mantras will protect us, but folks continue to light up that first cigarette, drive home from the party when they shouldn't...

Yeah choosing to drive drunk is also just peachy- let's forgive and give the poor drunk driver a hug after he crashes, too- since we all have an "inevitable" DUI wreck now and again.


When you are doing things that can kill innocent people you should take total care to not behave negligently. It can be done, really. Many of us are not cavalier about gun safety and don't have an ND precicely because of that "prissy" attitude.

This "bah- it's bound to happen sooner or later" drivel is propaganda straight from the anti-gun lobby. In treating this like the deadly serious situation it was, we're not beating up on StephenT, we're just not rushing to give him a warm fuzzy pat on the back and "carry on" like some here seem to be doing.


I find it sad that this quote (that is actually supposed to remind shooters of the everpresent spectre of ND and make them more careful):

"There are two kinds of shooters. Those who have had an ND, and those who are going to have one."

is now being used by some folks to justify negligent discharges.

 

[Powderman]

OK! Flame suit and rant mode on!!!

Let's crucify this poor sap, OK?! Why not? After all, we are all the gun gurus, and we NEVER have accidents, and are ALWAYS safe, right? We NEVER have taken ANY shortcuts, have we?

And, for the ones who DO have accidents, hey! Instead of telling the guy that "yeah, you boned up--by God's good graces, no one was hurt. Now, let's teach you, and train to NEVER let this happen again", we're telling him to seriously consider never touching a gun again.

Hogwash! Bull Cookies! Foul invective!!!

A much smarter man than I said in the book of Ephesians, "Judge not, lest ye be judged. For, in the manner that you judge, ye shall also be judged."

And, if I'm not mistaken, didn't a certain Carpenter from Galilee once tell a mob, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

Instead of hanging this guy with all of this holier than thou talk about him examining his future ownership of firearms, let's teach him through our postings how NEVER to let this happen again.

Here's a story of mine to get things started:

In my first Department, I was the Armorer. I was going through the spare shotguns to ensure that they were ready for storage. All that had to happen was to ensure that the hammer was dropped on an empty chamber.

I picked up the first one, an 870. For a second, I started to just pull the trigger. Then, like a neon sign, it flashed in my mind:

"ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED"

I unlocked the action, and racked the slide. A round of 00 buck ejected and fell to the floor.

I went to the restroom to clean up.

So, there's my contribution. All guns are ALWAYS loaded. Remember that they can always load themselves, AND WILL DO SO, at the first possible opportunity.

There's my contribution. How about another? Let's keep it on the High Road.

 

[ny32182]

I've never had a ND either.

What serves as a 4 rule reenforcement to me, especially rule number one, "All guns are always loaded"... is that in my case, it is true. I keep ALL my guns loaded, ALL the time. That way I'm NEVER even TEMPTED to "guess"/assume that a gun is unloaded, and dropping the mag, and clearing/checking the chamber is an absolutely automatic practice every time I pick up a firearm. When I get back from the range, whatever gun(s) I was shooting that day get cleaned, and a loaded mag inserted before being placed in the safe. I'm the only one on earth with access to the safe. There may be differing opinions on this practice, but it keeps me from ever getting even the least bit complacent.

Also I'm fortunate enough to live on the top floor of my apt building, so the ceiling is always a safe direction for rules 3 and 4.

I bet the blast of that 5.56 inside was no fun at all. How long till you could hear anything at all?

 

[coylh]

Remember Yoda: "Do, or do not. There is no try."

I have owned firearms for 12 years, carried for 9, and have never had an ND. I don't try to be safe. I am safe!

 

[psyopspec]

Powderman, no flames, but my clarifications

I don't think anyone will disagree with your ideas of forgiveness; my intention was merely to point out the mild reaction of a few and beg the question "what would the antis do" with this information? I'm sure if DU catches wind of this thread they'll be peeing themselves in self-righteous glory. We're not "holier than thou." But people who argue about the inevitability of a gun spontaneously firing when a shouldn't (the antis) who are then proven right are justifiable to adopt such an attitude. Shooters who say that it happens all the time, implying that it's no big deal, support the former group.

As for the future of firearms ownership in the aftermath of an ND, everyone who's made reference to that has done so answering the origonal query of 'how would you deal with an AD/ND?' My reply, and everyone else's, started with "If it were me..." or a similar phrase. And I was being completely honest. No more CCW. No more IDPA. No more nightstand gun. Maybe an HD shotgun at most, but even then an empty chamber. But again, that's just me. YMMV.

 

[torpid]

sidenote:

And, if I'm not mistaken, didn't a certain Carpenter from Galilee once tell a mob, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

The same "certain Carpenter from Galilee" also physically drove the moneychangers out of the temple in a frenzy of righteous anger (while the people had just accepted the situation as "no big deal").

(just sayin')

.

 

[pete f]

I am lucky....

I am a newbie here but I have had firearms since I was twelve.

I have one question and one comment?
Are you sure your finger hit the trigger? Or did the rifle sear not hold.
This is important info, if you take the rifle, (EMPTY< NO MAGS ANYWHERE NEAR) and replay your actions does the rifle snap when you pull and then release the charging handle.
I have seen a few AR 's that failed at this test.

My comment: In my basement there is a 6 inch by 48 inch piece of well casing, or heavy wall steel pipe. It has had a heavy steel plate welded onthe bottom to make a base and one end closed off, I paid my brother in law $30 dollars to make it. It is filled about half way up with sand and has a piece of truck innertube hose clamped over the open end with a small slit in it. ALL firearms in my house that have to get loaded or unloaded in the house are cycled with the barrel in the pipe. I hand load and before going hunting all rounds are function tested in the rifle they are to be used in. This helps in finding out that once fired brass you got for free actually has been resized down enough to fit in my rifle, you only go load your rifle once and find outthe bolt will not close before you learn this one. I also like to function test all weapons I have field stripped or more once I have put them together. I had an AD, UD, ND, or oooops once I had bought a new-to-me Swedish Mauser 96 that had a Buehler side swing safety mounted on it. The attempt at sporterizeing this rifle was not bad but not real professional. The original two stage trigger was gone and a no name after market was there but it had a ten pound pull. No problem I thought and I adjusted it to a decent 3.5 pound pull on the trigger scale. I did all the test for function after that except put the safety on and then pull then safety off does the sear hold? I missed that one. I loaded several rounds and carefully held the trigger down while I squeezed the bolt shut, flipped on the safety and then realized I could not cycle the bolt with the safety on. So I flipped the safety off and BLAM the sear did not hold but I was lucky and had already put the barrel in the bullet trap before I released the safety and found out that the two position safety that locked the bolt also cammed the sear out of the way. No wonder the trigger was set at ten pounds It was the only way to have the trigger have enough tension to snap back and "follow" the safety and catch the sear. I sat down for a long while after that and thought about what could have been.

My second story was walking in to a old timey gun shop that had had the city deteriorate around it, after years of hanging on and trying to fight the changes they had decided to clearance everything out. My eyes fell upon a nice Ithaca m 37 pump and I picked it up and looked at it and as I brought it to my shoulder my fathers words screamed in my head "IS IT LOADED??"
I lowered the shotgun and racked the actoin and as I did and saw that glint of brass as the bolt slide back I nearly got sick. I yelled to the owner and said for him to come, he saw the round still stuck in the extractor and said what I had been almost doing in my pants and grabbed another and another and another when he found one too. One the floor by the door we found a empty five round box of 00 buck and in the racks we had found three more loaded shotguns. The owner closed the doors for good right then and let a liquidator take his stock.
To this day, in my house, bolt guns have the bolt out. Semis have a orange squash block in the action, shotguns have the barrels off. cheap and simple safety. If I am working on the gun will assemble it etc but never load it unless it is in the trap

 

[Model520Fan]

StephenT,

You made at least two or three mistakes which led to the hole in the ceiling. AD's that people remember usually have two or three safety violations, not one.

You need to put that AR15 away, disassembled, until you figure out what ALL of the safety violations were, and train yourself to stop doing them. When you figure out what they are, you may find that you need to quit playing with guns for a month or two.

I once had an AD on a pistol range, with the pistol pointed downrange, at the command "With five rounds, load!" Believe it or not, the rangemaster was actually going to let me continue. I did not. I knew immediately that I had to stop and ponder the error of my ways, which, of course, you know, also. What I had done was to form a certain habit which was arguably appropriate to a particular type of pistol. This habit was useless on other pistols and tended to lead to error on those pistols. But only once. I sold every pistol I owned of the first type, and stayed away from autoloaders for a month or two. When I commenced using autoloaders again, I reminded myself constantly of the error of that habit.

Some personal views on what you did wrong.

1. You did NOT have the gun pointed in a safe direction. In fact, in an apartment, there may not BE a safe direction unless you construct one. This violates the rule about not pointing the gun at anything you don't want to kill.

2. You were handling ammunition and playing with the gun, in some unspecified way. In an apartment without a safe direction to point a gun (if that is the case), you probably shouldn't even be handling a gun, much less ammunition.

3. I strongly recommend correcting or adapting to the limitations of your situation. If you can't find or construct a safe direction to point guns in your apartment, you simply need to give up gunhandling in your apartment. Load your revolver, put it in your holster and snap the safety strap, and leave it there. [I hope your revolver is stainless.] If you only have autos, do this someplace safe, not in your apartment. This may seem extreme, but you have already proved that it isn't. The safety rules are designed to overlap, so that if you accidentally break one, and everybody will, one of the others will avert tragedy. But if you start routinely breaking one, like pointing guns at things that shouldn't be shot, sooner or later you will break one or two others, JUST AS YOU DID, and the result will not always be as fortunate as this time.

BTW, I do not recommend discussing this with your neighbor or your landlord. But you know what you have to do.

520