One cannot mix lethality and stopping performance in comparing effectiveness..
How vital is it to get defense ammo?
- Thread starter The Exile
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Why water jugs?
What does 0.87 expansion really mean in terms of wounding mechanics?
Have you measured the time for firing five combat-accurate shots, and compared it with other rounds?
Garandimal
member
Well...
- G36/ .45 ACP/ 230 gr. ball -
(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)
Works for me.(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)
GR
Five rounds in five seconds?
An attacker can move five yards in one second.
Kick it a notch--a BIG notch
One other thing: one would have a very interesting time explaining how one had been able to lawfully draw and start shooting before an attacker had closed to ten yards.
An attacker can move five yards in one second.
Kick it a notch--a BIG notch
One other thing: one would have a very interesting time explaining how one had been able to lawfully draw and start shooting before an attacker had closed to ten yards.
Garandimal
member
Stop-watch academics - always come up with interesting obfuscations.
How far do you expect them to move after ANY of those hits?
...except maybe backwards... or down.
Waiting for your "high capacity Magazine" rebuttal.
GR
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I'm not saying it doesn't work well because I read it somewhere or heard it in a gun shop. I took the same kind of mythological rhetoric displayed in this thread and applied hardball in the field. I saw it fail, miserably.
GR, it is clear that you enjoy shooting and gun lore. We applaud that.
I'm not at all sure about your appreciation of defensive shooting, however.
Do not take that personally. We all start out there.
When I started carrying a dozen years ago after decades of handgun shooting, my thoughts on defensive shooting were based on the following:
- Slow fire, such as I practiced at the range, would suffice.
- The bullet(s) had "knock down power", based in KE or momentum.
- Not too many shots would likely be required--I had never studied human anatomy enough to rid myself of the habit of thinking of defensive shooting in terms of the impact of bullets on water jugs.
- My .45 ACP would certainly be more effective than my 9MM--it kicked harder, it struck jugs more impressively, and here were the stories of the advantages of the .45 Colt over the .38 Long Colt in fighting the Moro fanatics on Mindanao.
Then one of the staff here posted some data on the .45 vs the 9MM that caused me to reconsider.
Then, I read, and reread, the study Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, from the FBI training Academy at Quantico. From that I learned quite a bit, most importantly that it is what is hit inside the body that counts. Since one cannot see those things to try to aim at them, one must rely on shooting more shots, quickly.
I availed myself of some defensive shooting training.
My first class involved nothing but Bill Drills. We started out learning to shoot very rapidly--more rapidly than I had ever shot before. Up there with what one sees on LEO bodycam videos.
I found myself at a significant disadvantage compared with those shooting the .40, and more so compared with those with 9MM pistols.
I put the .45 away and started carrying a 9MM.
It is natural to believe that the gun with the harder kick, bigger blast , and louder boom will "hit harder"--until one learns that when the target is a human, it does not.
More from Quantico:
- 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
- There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto
- The majority of FBI shooters are both FASTER in shot strings fired and more ACCURATE with shooting a 9mm Luger vs shooting a .40 S&W (similar sized weapons)s select projectiles which are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most of the premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI
- Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers
One can read about these things, but the best way to gain a real appreciation of them is to attend a really good defensive shooting training session.
I was fortunate to take the I.C.E. PDN Combat Shooting course under Rob Pincus himself,
I recommend looking into it.
Garandimal
member
Have looked into it.
- the .45 ACP - was chosen for carry wt. and frame size, before the slim compacts arrived.
- The FBI study - was a means to an end. The .40 had a great street record - accountants and thin wristed clerical staff, not so much.
- LEO agencies follow the FBI - right or wrong. Ten years in the field will bear out which.
- 9mm HP works. I even have one, be it a micro, because, for me, that's where it belongs.
- And LEO's have a different obligation and problem set. They are responsible for shooting their way into trouble, while the civilian is only required to shoot their way out.
GR
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It was good, but improved 9mm bullets--which are not needed for the .40 because only so much penetration is needed--put it in second place.
An oft-repeated misconception.
They use the best data available.
The time has elapsed, the returns are in, and the answer is known.
That affects tactics, but not handgun selection criteria.
You appear to be arguing--against most of the research available.
I have been trying to educate. I'll be happy to stop, if you wish
Your "ten yards five seconds five rounds" response differs so much from the drills of all recognized trainers that it is clear that you are not arguing from a position of realistic knowledge.
You can remedy that, if you are really serious about self defense.
Had someone not convinced me to to a little more, I'd still be thinking in terms of squeezing off shots slowly as I always had.
I had come to understand , independent of that, that what I had thought about my .45 was not longer credible, but my skills would still be lacking.
Self defense is not all about shooting, and defensive shooting is not the same as shooting at the square range.
There are resources available. Look into them.The skills and knowledge gained just could turn out to mean a lot.
Garandimal
member
Yeah...
Here's a guy that took a few classes, too.
... except, he seems to have passed on the Kool-Aid.
GR
This one has been around before.
I have absolutely no idea about his "classes", but twelve shots in eight seconds is nowhere near representative of realistic defensive shooting.
And, of course, the slower the rate of fire, the smaller the disadvantage of the harder-recoiling gun. Slow down enough and there is no difference.
If you want to characterize the training of all of the recognized defensive handgun shooing trainers in the country as "Kool-Aid", I cannot help you, nor can, I believe, anyone else at THR, unless you take one of their courses.
Massad Ayoob is a member here. Perhaps his training would help you. Start with MAG 30.
Rob Pincus talks like a Marine Drill Instructor when he teaches actual shooting. Perhaps he could get through to you.
C-grunt
Member
Ive seen multiple people shot with the 45. Several with the 230 grain HST +P as it's our 45 duty load. It works well. It doesn't turn a bad hit into a good hit. Ive had to guard several people in the hospital that got in gunfights with officers and ate a few 45 HSTs. I carried a Glock 21 for several years because I found it to be more controllable than the Glock 22 shooting 180 grain HST. Looking at my award placard from the Academy I shot top shooter of my class with a overall score of 99.28 percent shot with a Glock 22, so it's not like I cant shoot the gun well. When 9mm was authorized I switched to a Glock 17 for the same reason. More controllable. Plus I've never been at the end of a gunfight and thought "I wish I brought less ammo".
Our 9mm duty load is the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P. We've had good success with it. I haven't seen any "9mm is too weak" instances and it's performed well even through windshields and auto body.
Our 9mm duty load is the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P. We've had good success with it. I haven't seen any "9mm is too weak" instances and it's performed well even through windshields and auto body.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Hey Garandimal
How many gun fights you been in?
How many gun fights you been in?
Garandimal
member
And do these look like good hits or bad hits?
- G36/ .45 ACP/ 230 gr. ball -
(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)
GR(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)
That would be a matter of what they struck inside the body, and, of course, the timing would be critical.
Range shooting and defensive shooTing are not the same thing,
Palladan44
Member
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I had a colleague that shot competition, and also scored the best at work shoots. Real great shot, way better than I... Was involved in an OIS where he pulled over a car w/ invalid tags. The unknown subject, who turned out to be a known felon grabbed a can of OC and got him in the face with it, and fled. (This MO was reported a few times that summer. The same guy actually did it to a Walmart Employee, and another officer that same month) ....Officer fired almost 2 full magazines (24 rounds) into the automobile as it fled. Disabled the vehicle which led to the suspects arrest. All 24 bullets hit and most were found in the vehicle and one bullet hit the suspect in the elbow. After this incident, they instated a policy (which was already apparently in the works) to not shoot at fleeing vehicles, unless there is imminent danger to the public....
I say if someone is willing to pepper spray a police officer in the face and flee, they ARE an imminent danger to the public. Our Chief stood up for the officer while he was on paper duty for 8 months....our city Eventually ousted our Chief out of position, for other reasons, but similar reasons. I still try to put myself into his shoes in that same instance. He wound up quitting the dept. and now cuts grass. Its really too bad, but politics play a huge role in things.
A uniformed officer, making a lawful traffic stop, was completely blinded by a chemical agent, used in ill will by a criminal to flee. And officer responded with immediate, within fractions of seconds, lethal force.
I say if someone is willing to pepper spray a police officer in the face and flee, they ARE an imminent danger to the public. Our Chief stood up for the officer while he was on paper duty for 8 months....our city Eventually ousted our Chief out of position, for other reasons, but similar reasons. I still try to put myself into his shoes in that same instance. He wound up quitting the dept. and now cuts grass. Its really too bad, but politics play a huge role in things.
A uniformed officer, making a lawful traffic stop, was completely blinded by a chemical agent, used in ill will by a criminal to flee. And officer responded with immediate, within fractions of seconds, lethal force.
Zendude
Member
One aspect that I’ve wondered about in civilian concealed carry - Since the goal is to stop an attack rather than killing the attacker, has there been any successful legal argument that says since hollow points are more deadly, then hollow points should NOT be used by civilians?
I don’t recall Massad Ayoob saying this was a legal problem, but I don’t remember him talking directly about this line of legal argument either.
I don’t recall Massad Ayoob saying this was a legal problem, but I don’t remember him talking directly about this line of legal argument either.
toivo
Member
I'm not a lawyer, but I think the answer to that would be that you use them for the same reason the police do: not to kill the attacker, but to minimize the danger of pass-through bullets hitting bystanders.
We know that one juror in one case expressed concern about a defendant's having used a 10MM pistol, and that the defendant was convicted. That did not establish precedent. Whether such an argument RE: JHP ammunition has been made before a Grand Jury or at trial is probably not known.
As stated above, such an argument can be readily countered.
Pretty much.
From the horse's mouth:
https://dailycaller.com/2014/03/04/massad-ayoob-police-ammo-for-the-rest-of-us/
Garandimal
member
Well...
Here's a human body:
- G36/ .45 ACP/ 230 gr. ball -
(10 yards/ 5 rounds/ 5 sec. from low ready/ Strong hand only)
GR, whatdya know about handgun wounding and defensive shooting?
Do you believe that a shot through a lung would likely stop a violent attacker timely?
Two shots?
Are you aware that a person shot in the heart may well have up to 15 seconds left in which to shoot you?
Do you insist on believing in the defensive utility of slow fire?
I hate to put it quite this way, but I'll take the research-based advice of the experts over your preconceptions any day.
I suggest that you stop trying to argue and start trying to learn.
This is an old, old topic here. Try the search function.
Do you believe that a shot through a lung would likely stop a violent attacker timely?
Two shots?
Are you aware that a person shot in the heart may well have up to 15 seconds left in which to shoot you?
Do you insist on believing in the defensive utility of slow fire?
I hate to put it quite this way, but I'll take the research-based advice of the experts over your preconceptions any day.
I suggest that you stop trying to argue and start trying to learn.
This is an old, old topic here. Try the search function.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Whatever those bullets would've struck, chances are very good that a JHP would do a FAR better job ending the confrontation than hardball.
Palladan44
Member
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Without a doubt
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