How vital is it to get defense ammo?

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I think, statistically, over the long haul, defensive ammo works better than FMJ. Will it work better in one unique situation that you might be involved in ? Maybe. Is it worth saving fifty bucks to find out ? No.


I am by no means an expert or authority on this or any other subject, but FWIW: I worked for over 30 years as a paramedic in a high call volume EMS system in a city of about 2 million, and have seen a fair number of shootings with handguns. I am racking my brain to try and remember ever seeing a handgun bullet pass through and through. I am sure it happens, I don't remember seeing it myself. The first couple times I saw someone shot with a handgun, I was very underwhelmed after reading and hearing all the BS up till that time.
 
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At least you would be following the Geneva convention rules for humane warfare.....I dont recommend it.

I personally have never used FMJ bullets for defensive carry, but if I had to use 45 ACP out of my 1911s, I wouldnt hesitate to use Hardball if I had to.
Ive seen JHP not expand in my 45s at times. (I dont use 45 for defense anyways)

I would never use FMJ out of 9mm for any reason for SD* *unless I had no other options.
 
This is a very enlightening study done in 2016 on a wide range of pistol ammo:

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31110&d=1538934056

which was discussed on this forum in 2018:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stics-test-for-defensive-handgun-ammo.844285/

What I took away:

- JHP is the least consistent ammo out there. It requires a specific velocity window to properly function. Too slow and it won’t expand. Too fast and it can come apart or open too large and reduce penetration. It sucks at barriers and when clogged up, becomes a FMJ.

FMJ is consistent. Flat nosed rounds generally provide more straight line travel vrs round nose which can deflect more readily and deviate when striking hard objects or even liquid.

The very best performance was with the solid specialty bullets (Lehigh extreme penetrators/defenders).

The entire report is interesting, but you can skip ahead to the summary write ups, start reading at page 27.

Some JHP tips I found interesting:

- Larger calibers perform better (who knew? :neener:)

- Heavier bullets in a given caliber outperformed lighter bullets. Again...shocker! LOL!

The Underwood Extreme Defender summary on page 32 was pretty convincing.
 
I haven't read the whole thread and won't. I refuse to depend on hardball unless there is no other option. Hardball performance on flesh is dismal. Any halfway decent JHP that expands is going to be exponentially better.
 
CraigC said:
I haven't read the whole thread and won't. I refuse to depend on hardball unless there is no other option. Hardball performance on flesh is dismal. Any halfway decent JHP that expands is going to be exponentially better.
Click to expand...

It’s a free country (kinda)...use what you want.

FMJ has been damaging flesh and killing folks on the battlefield and in the hood for many years. No reason to think we’ve evolved to where it’s not gonna work now.

As far as I know, most of the big dangerous game is hunted with solid bullets.

Hollow point design has come a long way, and are mostly what cops carry anymore. But the goal has been maximum destruction without over penetration. FMJ’s design is much simpler...fly straight and go deep.

FWIW, all my carry firearms have premium JHP ammo loaded. I’m sure it will work fine. I bought it several years ago, mostly Gold Dots and Federal HST with some Hornady Critical Duty mixed it.

But when I go hiking in the trails of Texas or elsewhere, and not worried about over penetration in a crowd, I’ve got Underwood hard cast in the magazine after the first couple JHP’s.
 
I don't recall telling anyone what to do.

Oh Lord, I've never heard that before. What happens on the battlefield is largely irrelevant in this context. Because not only is FMJ legally required by The Hague Convention, not a lot of folks are getting shot with hardball out of handguns. Most are falling to rifles, which is a different discussion entirely. It also doesn't matter if a person shot with hardball dies right now or a week from now. All that matters is that they are out of the fight. Go shoot some critters with FMJ and report back. You'll be singing a different tune.

Dangerous game is hunted with solid bullets, except the big cats. The cats are ALWAYS hunted with expanding bullets and there is a lesson in that. Roundnose solids are used for the bigger stuff because it penetrates better. So tissue damage is traded for penetration depth. A concession unnecessary in a self defense load. It's also acceptable for Cape buffalo to take a good hit and run 100yds before it gives the death rattle. Not really desirable for your opponent in a gunfight to be that long on his feet. If your buff does stay to fight, you'll need a good CNS hit to put him down. It has also come to pass that flat nosed solids are used more and more because they not only create more tissue damage but they penetrate straighter.
 
Ill put this in the form of questions.

Do seconds and fractions of seconds count with every SD encounter?

Is it reasonable to assume that a deadly threat could continue for fractions of seconds longer because you chose FMJ over HP ammunition in your service caliber defensive handgun?

(I understand that this all changes with larger more dangerous animals, but I dont think thats where the OP is going with this.)
 
Buzznrose said:
FMJ has been damaging flesh and killing folks on the battlefield and in the hood for many years
Click to expand...
Killing is neither a lawful objective nor a measure of merit for self defense.

Buzznrose said:
No reason to think we’ve evolved to where it’s not gonna work now.
Click to expand...
Well, the military has been procuring high performance barrier blind JHP ammunition for special issue.

The stated reason is to prevent over-penetration. I doubt that's all of it.

Buzznrose said:
As far as I know, most of the big dangerous game is hunted with solid bullets.
Click to expand...
Quite obviously, a different performance requirement.

Buzznrose said:
Hollow point design has come a long way, and are mostly what cops carry anymore. But the goal has been maximum destruction without over penetration. FMJ’s design is much simpler...fly straight and go deep.
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One need go only so deep in lawful self defense.
 
444 said:
I am by no means an expert or authority on this or any other subject, but FWIW: I worked for over 30 years as a paramedic in a high call volume EMS system in a city of about 2 million, and have seen a fair number of shootings with handguns. I am racking my brain to try and remember ever seeing a handgun bullet pass through and through. I am sure it happens, I don't remember seeing it myself. The first couple times I saw someone shot with a handgun, I was very underwhelmed after reading and hearing all the BS up till that time.
Click to expand...

From all the handgun wounds I've seen id say that non exits are probably more common. But pass throughs are definitely not rare.
 
Well, a JHP just may expand. If it doesn’t you are not losing anything to FMJ.
 
CraigC said:
...Because not only is FMJ legally required by The Hague Convention...
Click to expand...

The United States - is not signatory to the Hague Convention.

Ball ammo in .45 ACP works pretty well.

Even FMJ/FP .40 will make kind of a mess.

9mm ball...?

1503143212432.gif

​
...just say, "No."




GR
 
Ive seen plenty of corpses will 9mm ball holes through them. Ive also interviewed and guarded plenty of people at the hospital shot with 45 ACP, ball and hollow points. All duty handguns suck without good hits. A 45 just makes a slightly larger hole.
 
I think there are a lot of things more "vital" than whether your gun is loaded cheap JHPs or premium JHPs or even with FMJ. I don't see why someone would choose to use FMJ but I feel this would be one of the less important details in the big picture.
 
Goosey said:
I think there are a lot of things more "vital" than whether your gun is loaded cheap JHPs or premium JHPs or even with FMJ. I don't see why someone would choose to use FMJ but I feel this would be one of the less important details in the big picture.
Click to expand...

The advantages of JHP ammo should not be ignored.

But pistols will still function w/out it, if Ball is all you have.




GR
 
The next question is what to use.

Hornady Critical Duty ammo will penetrate auto glass when hitting it at an angle, and still penetrate 14 inches into gel. It does not actually expand after penetrating the glass, but it flattens to a diameter of over .4 inches.

It meets FBI specs--but it does not expand reliably when fired tom a short barrel.

Hornady Critical defense ammo, on the other hand, works well with shorter barrels. But it does not pass the FBI glass barrier test.

i prefer the latter.
 
I just have a long standing distrust of Hornady bullets, handgun and rifle. The Federal HST has impressed the hell out of me. Here's a .45 HST compared to a 9mm Hornady.

013b.jpg
 
CraigC said:
I notice that people get real cryptic when pressed about it.

Or they just speak real vaguely about how many years the military has used it. Not unlike the nonsense about the .45Colt and horses.
Click to expand...

I posted the link to a study from
2016 and the thread where it had been discussed.

That study identified the strengths and shortfalls of HP’s, FMJ’s, and other bullet designs.

I was also mischaracterized in an earlier post that said:

“Killing is neither a lawful objective nor a measure of merit for self defense.“

I wasn’t referring to self defense “objectives” or “measures of merit”. I was simply stating facts. The facts are that many many people have been seriously injured and killed from being shot with FMJ ammo. I made that point to counter the earlier argument that “hardball performance on flesh is dismal”

Personally, I don’t care what y’all want to use for ammo. But don’t make statements that the stuff doesn’t work well.

Finally, and what really should be the key point in any “what ammo” argument is really that when shooting “live meat targets”, there is no magic bullet...only hits count, and “boiler room” and spinal/ CNS hits count more.

I’m done.
 
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