Hunting guns and miltary guns.

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"Is there any (other) empirical way to measure this?"

There is but i would consider it to be unethical. Obviously there is no clear line of what caliber is acceptable but to me a .223 is clearly not for deer sized game and there are state legislatures that have agreed. I suppose the only other method would be to survey hunters who use each cartridge but data gathered this way would be highly suspect. Either way i would consider cartridge selection to be anything but a moot point both in caliber and type.

I don't hunt with a .223 but personally i am suspiscious that even animals shot in the "kill zone" from distance may occasionally escape wounded to die at a later time. I have no way to verify this but i can imagine ways it could happen based on the round's ballistics.
 
There is but i would consider it to be unethical.
I would have a hard time using live animals to shoot, especially badly, just to measure how bad is bad. But such tests have been conducted.

Obviously there is no clear line of what caliber is acceptable but to me a .223 is clearly not for deer sized game and there are state legislatures that have agreed.
Certainly, some have. And yet, some hunters kill deer, with great success and unassailable ethicality, with small calibers and have for generations.

That is a big problem with legislating hunting ethics. (Or any other ethics, probably?) Some hunters know and understand their quarry and their tools and only take ethical shots for which they have a reasonable and realistic belief of a successful kill -- if that's with a .22LR. Some hunters are unethical, wasteful, and dangerous with any gun at all, even though they're playing by the rules that claim, or attempt, to prevent ... whatever they're trying to prevent.

So another question would be, does putting a bigger gun in every shooters' hand make the average shot taken more ethical? (Obviously some say yes, some say no.)

I suppose the only other method would be to survey hunters who use each cartridge but data gathered this way would be highly suspect.
Yes. Unless, of course, you wanted the entire test heavily skewed to .30-30 Win!

Either way i would consider cartridge selection to be anything but a moot point both in caliber and type.
"Moot point" is probably not the right way to say that. But moot, within certain boundaries, might be true. One of the posters suggested that he could be much more certain of his shots with a .308 than with a .243. On deer-sized game, holding the ranges to some reasonable distance (either cartridge will reach out a long way... .243 might have the edge, at greater range), I'm not ready to claim there's a significant gain from one to the other.
 
"I would have a hard time using live animals to shoot, especially badly, just to measure how bad is bad. But such tests have been conducted."

Yes, unfortunatley they have and i find them disgusting. I was raised to respect life and believe that one doesn't kill something unless they intend to it, or it's trying to eat them.

"Some hunters are unethical, wasteful, and dangerous with any gun at all, even though they're playing by the rules that claim, or attempt, to prevent ... whatever they're trying to prevent."

Unfortunately that is also true. While i don't generally like the legislation of ethics in this situation the hunted animal suffers instead of those behaving in an unethical way. Hunting is alread full of all kinds of laws based around ethics and sustainability so i have not problem with one regulating the type and caliber of bullet used.

"So another question would be, does putting a bigger gun in every shooters' hand make the average shot taken more ethical? (Obviously some say yes, some say no.)"

If the only thing changing in the equation is the caliber i would say yes.

I'm not very familiar with the .243 so i personally can't comment on that round.
 
I use my AR for Coyote and it works great. I guess i feel my hunting rifles(bolt actions) dont need to be all tactical. I wont need a laser or flashlight because i wont be able to hunt at night anyways. I have thought about the same question, what makes it military and what makes it hunting. A hunting rifle is just a sniper rifle if you think about it. One shot one kill.
 
If all you hunt is whitetail 243 is perfect, a 308 or 30-06 is overkill for them imo. all of my family hunts whitetail in Florida,south Carolina and Texas. all of us use the 243 for whitetail....except for my father who uses his hog gun 30-06 on whitetail.
I can tell you I have often seen wounds from the .243 surpass the '06 many times.I assume its cause the 30-06 just zips though them where as the 243 actually imparts its energy.

223 and a 243 arnt even remotely similar
 
If shot placement is everything, then a "laser beam" hole using FMJ should not matter?

Anyone know exactly which of the following loads would create a bigger wound channel?

168 gr OTM (308), or 62gr soft point (223)........?

Lets even keep the bbls the same length here for both rifles.


11B
 
If you have placed the shot correctly, the "Lazer beam" bullet of .22 or .30 will put a simular or largere sized hole through the heart or brain, is quite sufficent for an immediate kill.
FMJ's will not "lazer beam" bones, they tend to smash them, and one in the spineal collon or shoulders will bust them quite broken.
Most FMJ's tumble when they are subject to passing through meat at 2660FPS and I find that two holes are better than one.

I use Czeck 7.62X54r FMJ's, both leagal and practical here, as FMJ's are "Alaskan Solids" and with the excellent accuracy and terminal effects put them in theplaces they need to go and they do the job wickedly.
I hunt for a living here in the Arctic, all year round, and the debate over FMJ's being worse than soft point is well laughed at round here, where Hunting IS the main occupation of men......we are all only interested in accurate rifles,accurate ammo, no matter the caliber, and as well, I use the appropriate calibers, when possible .22L, .30 anything, 12 gauge, on the animals I hunt, though I will use the Mosin on Bunnys and the 12 gauge on a Bear, if I have to......it often boils down to what yo have in hand when **** is happening.

Alot depends on your laws and what the guy selling you the ammo/gun/whatever views as "The truth" and how they are gonna sell it to you........Its always bewst to observe before buying into something.
 
Wow, I missed some stuff here. Sometimes we don't shoot for "meat", sometimes we shoot for self or property defense like coons raiding the hen house at night and the motion lights just went on, or the "the dam deer are in the vegetable garden again" - so you go out an eradicate them.

Dead is dead - if it takes a few minutes longer, that's what happens. It ain't all about rests and sight pictures and one click behind the shoulder. Bad shot to slow the getaway and follow-up to kill is often the way of the farm. They are still not coming back to munch on grandmas lettuce or chickens. Lots of quartering away shots have been taken on fleeing animals.

Some of these critters you can't stop and keep in range with a 22. They will bound off over the fence with a chicken in their jaws and all will be lost. Maybe they'll die and maybe they won't. If they don't they will just be more wary and crafty about getting into the yard next time and they will still be back.

If you spray them with a scatter gun, you kill you own flock or destroy all the veggies. You have to hit them with enough to knock them down and then hit them again, and sometimes again. Then come morning, get the tractor out and bury the mess.

Yeah, I'd love to do one shot one kill - but it don't always work that way. Sometimes you disable and then kill. I got no argument with 243, I just don't have one. I shot a 556 in the Army and I know what it'll do - it is lethal, on men. I just prefer a bit heavier and slower for crafty animals. 30-30 gets a lot of use around the farm, always has.

Only time we ever went after a mountain lion, had just stolen a new foal, we grabbed the 06 and the 444 Marlin. We never caught up with it, but if we had, we did not want a mad big cat coming at us. Again, disable and then kill if you have to. I would never go up against a mad cat with a 223 or a 30-30. I want to impart more energy than that right now. I want expanding bullet with weight.

Just my $.02 - but some of these arguments can get a bit esoteric?
 
Wow, Jeff. Erm, English.

It's just a language, no better nor worse than any other. It was not the reason for the industrial revolution, friend. It is the language used by two of the most successful countries in recent history - England and the USA. It is the success of the countries, and their projection of their culture and language around the world, that has made English the Lingua Franca of the modern world.

Did you miss that? Lingua Franca. See, the common use language in the western world used to be French. Before that, it used to be Arabic. Before that, it was Latin.

Look at China and the rest of the Far East, though - most of the languages and writing is based on, or heavily influenced by, Chinese. They're pretty heavily industrialized, last I heard.

Point is, success of the country or culture is what has bred the common use of the familiar language.

No language is more precise or less, really. It all depends on use and application.
 
My experience is similar to yours Caribou , and I haven't had any issues with hunting hogs using 7.62x51mm FMJ or OTM for that matter. Legal for hog hunting where I hunt. As you mentioned already, it all comes down to the local laws where one is hunting at, along with what folks in a given area are trying to sell.
FWIW...... I'm career Infantry, so my job has related to wound effects from various types of calibers ...(5.56/7.62x39,51,54/9mm are the common calibers where I am currently deployed, but not the only ones).
I have seen kids fire weapons chambered in a few of the above mentioned cartridges, but have not generally heard any of them referred to as a "kid specific" cartridge.

As this relates to hunting...... The "laser beam hole" using 7.62x51mm FMJ is a myth for the most part, and especially if the bullet hits bone... based on what I have seen firsthand concerning dozens of FMJ shot hogs. It generally seems to smash through bone on the way through, and that's about the best way I can describe it. 7.62x51mm FMJ will usually leave an exit wound from my experience.
FWIW...... 168gr OTM produces similar results on hogs, and I have used this to dump them at ranges out to 400 yds with an 18inbbl M14S.






11B
 
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[Hey, let's consider the language debate closed. While I find it very interesting, personally, it isn't on-topic for THR, or this thread, and I apologize for my part in continuing it. At any rate, let's focus on the question at hand.]
 
Here are a few guns I have taken hogs with.....
SANY1247.jpg

The M14S at top is my primary hunting rifle for deer, hogs, etc.....

I use a Ruger 10-22 for hunting small game.


11B
 
This is very much a debate that a bolt action rifle in a .30 battle rifle type caliber is inherently superior to a self loading intermediate caliber rifle. Which is actually a class warfare discussion, my ethics and choice of weapon are better than yours. And it can be demonstrated to be complete BS.

This is something that came up years ago, in the marketing of bolt actions, as a method of undercutting the arguments that bolt guns ought to be a lot cheaper, considering the simple construction and uncomplicated machining. Their dynamic operation isn't even a major engineering problem, no gas cycles to time or heat resistant materials to bother with.

Always picture the bolt gun user with expensive accoutrements in an ethically pure, untainted situation, and all is right with the world. Don't forget, offer a major caliber, to boot. How uncomplicated.

This elitist notion of gun use wasn't something much shared by our forebears, IIRC many of them chose to use technically superior guns whenever the opportunity arose. It was largely the impact of declining game populations that created a sense that large volumes of fire weren't going to happen anymore, sell the single shot guns and great white hunter lifestyle.

Which isn't what a hog hunter in Texas would find helpful dispatching a herd in his fields, trampling down hundreds of dollars in crops every hour.

There's the crux - bolt gunner A declares himself righteously equipped to ethically dispatch his trophy buck in fair chase on one hand, and self loader AR shooter B categorically states no less than a 20 round magazine will do thinning a pest damaging crops.

The very obvious point is that properly used, the AR will do just fine on deer, too, but in the target rich environment of pest control, the bolt gunner is outclassed by the working mans friend. That inversion is what rankles so many bolt gunners so much.

Hence, all the justification in one shot, one kill, when experience tells us that isn't the most likely shot hunting. Very often - even with an ostensibly good shot - the game isn't anchored at all, just the same as in combat. Soldiers shot more than once with major caliber weapons don't go down, and fight on, to actually win.

Since there can be no predictable result of bullet impact - regardless of the thousands of dollars spent in live animal research done every year - what hunters should be doing is providing the best gun for the worst situation. THAT's ethical, not hampering themselves with a deliberately obtuse firearm that has less capability to provide followup shots for when they will absolutely be needed.

It's not something the Great White Hunter wants to consider, sipping brandy after supper with his cohorts while smoking cigars in the library. The concept he might simply screw up is anathema to his ego. Bad luck, old chap.

The disgust they exhibit toward selfloading firearms is a defense of socio-economic status - and their arguments are phrased to support inherent moral superiority. The simple fact is that bolt guns were proven completely insufficient by the constant challenges of actual mortal combat - something else they shy away from in this age of the volunteer Army.

No, I'm not wrong - steering this conversation into the brambles of English grammar is exactly the example to point out, an exercise in "My use is more upperclass than yours therefore I am superior to you." What usually goes along with that is a reticence to acknowledge the game that got away, because they were cranking an modern adaption of a curio and relic, rather than squeezing the trigger on game in their sights. People who consider themselves better than others don't admit to mistakes unless the Twitter photo is put out there for all to see.

All just a contest to see who measures up using a different yard stick. Nothing smaller could possibly be considered. :evil:
 
Leaving laws out of the deal, one thing that has made a seriously large change if what's a good hunting cartridge for hogs and deer is that of R&D in bullet technology.

When I started in with The Firing Line in 1998, there were really very few .223 bullets suitable for deer. That's no longer the case. To some extent, the same held for the 7.62x39.

As far as comparing such cartridges as .243 and .30-'06, I've killed a couple-dozen bucks with each of them. The difference was that with the .243 I was much pickier about the shot. I refused the shot if it had to be made at an angle through the body. With the '06, I didn't worry, since experience had shown me that there would definitely be adequate penetration.

After seventy years of shooting rifles, I'm more comfortable with conventional bolt actions. Nothing wrong with my Garand, but my 700Ti is much lighter. :) Odds are that I'll use my AR for night-time varmint hunting, once the night-vision scope is on it. Daytime? Whatever floats my boat at any given moment.

Absent bayonet work and butt-stroking, I don't see where comparative ruggedness between military and civvie rifles is relevant to anything at all. :D
 
So this discussion has drifted down from Guns to Ammo? I get the sense we are talking about Mil Ball ammo vs commercial or reloaded with commercial bullets?
 
Thanks for posting that Art. I got a lot of disrespect for saying something like that, let's hope people treat an admin better.

I'll make a few salient points. I own a FNH FNAR, and an SA M1A, amongst other guns.
Both are .308/7.62x51. The M1A fieldstrips down to 8 parts. The FNAR fieldstrips down to about 26, courtesy of the BAR semiauto action. (BAR like hunting rifle, not WWII support weapon.) The stock on the M1A is one piece, the charging handle is heavier, the mags are made of thicker material, and the sling mounts are military.

Stuff like that is why I said a lot of hunting rifles, with sporterized stocks, precision, light, optics, and lighter duty parts would not take military use.

Tirod, I'm afraid I don't agree with your philosophizing. As I, a "great white hunter" with a bolt action 30 cal, sat surrounded by hogs instead of the preferred deer, I did not drown in my snobbery or feel righteous in the limitations of my bolt action modern relic. Rather, I simply waited till three lined themselves up, blasted a round through all three, then dropped two more as they ran off. Nothing like having 5 dead things for a total of three shots fired.
 
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