Hunting with 30-30 at 500 yards?

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It was a hot little number. Teddy Roosevelt wrote and article about how flat it shot and how hard it hit. He recounted the first head of game he shot with it was an antelope at 186 paces and he didn't have to hold over... Keep in mind that the load at that time would of been a 160 gr bullet doing around 1900 fps.
 
Ah the ever popular debate between people who shoot and people who live vicariously through the internet. What fun.

In 1895, when the 30-30 made its commercial debut, it was a high velocity, high powered cartridge. It was the first purely commercial smokeless cartridge in the US; the 30-40 Krag had its commercial debut the year before in the Winchester 1885 Highwall. As noted above, celebrity sportsman of the day, later President, Teddy Roosevelt called it "the hot new small bore express." It was, at the time, a powerful, flat shooting slayer of beasts.

By 1925, when this ad came out, Phil Sharpe, Maj Ned Roberts, and a young Jack O'Connor were all hot and bothered about the PHENOMENAL velocities of the now just appearing in that new darling, the commercial bolt rifle, cartridge: the 30-06. At right about the same time, O'Connor would buy one of the first Model 54 bolt actions chambered in 270 and go on to invent the myth of death by "shock" from these UNBELIEVABLY fast cartridges. Roy Weatherby was probably shooting squirrels with a 22, reading these guys, and thinking it would be even better to go even faster. And we were 17 years away from a cataclysm that would create the metallurgy and machining prowess that would help make his dreams come true. Meanwhile, a boffin at Springfield Armory was working on a groundbreaking new semi automatic battle rifle in a blistering .276 caliber that would go even faster than the 30-06.

So, if you're trying to flog 30-30 ammo in the era of the hot 30-06 and gangsters shooting down G-men with Tommy guns, "good to 500 yards" sounds great and is only about a two hundred yard stretch. To a generation that started shooting for the pot with Grandpappy' s muzzleloader, or, if privileged, maybe a Trapdoor, wouldn't know what a range finder was, and may have heard talk of a telescopic sight at one of the regional 200 yard Scheutzen matches, 300 yard kills with a high velocity 30 cal round wouldn't have been the enormous challenge it is for us sissies today who need an aluminum chassied, blue printed, ultra fat super magnum, a laser range finder, and a $4000 scope that can see the flag on the moon.

And 100 years from now when our descendants are hunting super bugs on some distant planet with kinetic rail guns or plasma weapons or some such nonsense tied to their neuronet implants, they will wonder how the hell anyone killed anything other than themselves by setting off an open ended pipe bomb inches from our face.
 
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Aside from the trajectory issue, I would like to see what a perfectly held 1926 made 1894 Win. shooting 1926 ammo would produce as a group at 500 yards.
I seriously doubt it was MOA. Given the ammo of the day 3 MOA would be exceptional I would think. So we've already got a 15" group with no shooter error what so ever.
I used to hunt with large groups when I lived in NY. There was always the "old Joe can't hit paper but put fur in front of him he's a ace." Well the 19 misses where always forgotten it was #20 that finely landed that got Joe his "ace" reputation.
 
This add is from the 1920,s during the Great Depression. I doubt "ethics" crossed the mind to starving people trying to get meat to survive. Keep this in mind. It's easy to judge from behind a warm computer.
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It's even easier to know the roaring 20's preceded the great depression of the 30's.
 
Originally posted by: RPRNY
Meanwhile, a boffin at Springfield Armory was working on a groundbreaking new semi automatic battle rifle in a blistering .276 caliber that would go even faster than the 30-06.
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The only .276 under development at Springfield Armory during that time period that I'm aware of was the .276 Pederson.
It had nowhere near the power or velocity of the '06 and IIRC, pushed it's 140 grain bullet out at @ 2400 fps.

Were you possibly thinking of the .276 Enfield?
That was a British number designed to replace the .303 prior to WWI.
It pushed a 165 grain bullet to around 2,800 feet per second, considerably hotter than military 30-06 loads of the time.

With modern powders and bullets it probably would have made decent 500 yard deer rifle.
 
It appears that yet again the internet/THR ate a longer more detailed post so you are spared much kBabble.

Proving nothing but interesting Ihad an NCO that fired at 300 meter Type E kneeling man targets at 200 and 300 meters with a Marlin 336 in .30-30 and he scored 100 percent hits. His rifle had a then new "yellow TV screen" Tasco scope.

He allowed me a couple of shots at 300 and using his advice on where to aim I scored both hits.

He was not a braggert or a "I was there, it happened to me , this is no BS" type. He was actually awarded a Bronze Star with V device in 1974 for action in RVN I 1970 just after this shoot and had never meantioned the action to any of us. So I would have given him the hatchet on GW's birthday.

He claimed while we were talking about shooting that Marlin that he had knocked down such targets on the M60 GP MG range at Ft. Polk at 600 meters "Most of the time" with that rifle scope and ammo.

I realize a Kneeling man is a larger target area than the vitals of a deer, but it does make you wonder.

-Kbob
 
Enough practice and a determined individual can accomplish amazing things.;) I come from a long line of shooters that kept their families fed and did not ever brag about how "good" they shot. They just did what had to be done. I remember at 6 years old being given the old .22 rifle and a single round with the instructions that it was my job to get a rabbit for dinner and to kill it cleanly. I consider my shooting accuracy as being just OK around family.
 
I dunno, but I saw Gus gut shoot an hombre at a go - zillion yards with a 38-40 or 44-40 or 45 LC from a winchester lever action laid across his dead horse's saddle with the rear sight in the upper most raised position in Lonesome Dove SO IT MUST BE TRUE! Right? Right?
And then there's the first 2 mile sniper, Quigley!
Don't burst my bubble now!
Catpop
 
Catpop said:
I dunno, but I saw Gus gut shoot an hombre at a go - zillion yards with a 38-40 or 44-40 or 45 LC from a winchester lever action laid across his dead horse's saddle with the rear sight in the upper most raised position in Lonesome Dove SO IT MUST BE TRUE! Right? Right?
And then there's the first 2 mile sniper, Quigley!
Don't burst my bubble now!
Catpop
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Well, that was actually a Henry Rifle which would be .44 Henry Flat, a rimfire cartridge. Although they probably had a Uberti Henry in .44-40 for the TV show. Still a pretty good shot!
Of course, if it was shown on TV, it had to be true.
Right, Brian Williams? :neener:
 
Standard load for the .30-30 then was a 150gr roundnose bullet. Velocity about 1,900 FPS.

Let's be generous and give it 2,000 FPS. That's still over 100 inches of drop at 500 yards. Couple that with the fact of optics being uncommon for the average deer hunter then, it becomes both unlikely and edging into unethical territory.
 
i dont' know about the numbers but i can voice some experience here..

the last dear is shot with my 30-30 was at 350+ yards with open sights. 170 gr winchester rn. one shot kill through the heart. dropped on the spot.
if i had measured the distance and calculated everything beforehand i wouldn't have taken the shot because i know the 30-30 is always considered to be a 200 yd gun... but in the moment i just saw the dear and knew... "i can hit that." -and i did.

i have used the 30-30 for years and have taken many deer with it. it is a very capable gun no matter how modern magnum shooters like to badmouth it.
 
Originally posted by: bluejeans
i dont' know about the numbers but i can voice some experience here..

the last dear is shot with my 30-30 was at 350+ yards with open sights. 170 gr winchester rn. one shot kill through the heart. dropped on the spot.
if i had measured the distance and calculated everything beforehand i wouldn't have taken the shot because i know the 30-30 is always considered to be a 200 yd gun... but in the moment i just saw the dear and knew... "i can hit that." -and i did.

i have used the 30-30 for years and have taken many deer with it. it is a very capable gun no matter how modern magnum shooters like to badmouth it.
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So you didn't know the distance involved or the trajectory of your rifle/load but just knew, "i can hit that." And you were able to shoot it right through the heart at 375+ yards.

That's an incredible hunting story.

I like the 30-30 too, I can't imagine where the modern magnum shooters might have picked up their prejudices against the 30-30 and it's users.
 
Um... Not MEASURING the distance first doesn't mean I had no idea what it was... Just sayin, ... But yeah. :)
 
How did they measure velocity back in 1926? Electronics have been around for a long while, and people are clever, but I'm having trouble thinking of how they would have done it...
 
I may be wrong, someone will be along shortly to correct me if i am.

A pendulum of known weight was used and the bullet fired into it. A known weight projectile fired into a known weight pendulum, which moves a measurable distance. The only variable there is the velocity at impact.

What the actual formula is, I don't know.
 
1911 guy said:
I may be wrong, someone will be along shortly to correct me if i am.

A pendulum of known weight was used and the bullet fired into it. A known weight projectile fired into a known weight pendulum, which moves a measurable distance. The only variable there is the velocity at impact.

What the actual formula is, I don't know.
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We did this in college physics first semester. It wasn't that hard to do. I don't remember the details. Reagan was still president when I was in college.
 
There are a few videos out there of people making a 500 yards shot with a 30-30.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/vide...gqs&age=1273629639&fr2=p:s,v:v&fr=mcafee&tt=b

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQM9N6wQko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcJL9bCF3Dk

So it can be done.

The old ad was written by ad men. So it's not surprising it mis-spells the name of a town they've never been to. Nor that the velocity is off.

Note that they say they were getting 4" groups from a machine rest at 200 yards.

tipoc
 
I saw my old daddy shot a running coyote at over 300 with a 94 carbine one time when he was 60 years old.
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Wow that was one old coyote. ;) Seriously I know what you mean but people make fun of me when I say it. I've seen things that are just out of some people's realm of experience I guess. For example:

You don't just successfully guesstimate drops of several feet successfully, in the field, especially without modern optics,rangefinders, and the like.
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My brother handed me his .22 and told me to shoot a target about 300 yards away. He told me I had one shot. I missed it - by about 18 inches. A scope would have just got in the way. My brother laughed at me and took his shot. He hit it first try. So yes you can guesstimate drops of several feet and more. It aimed at the top of a small tree behind the target. I'll show you on a map exactly where it happened if you like. I've seen people do stuff with guns that a lot of people just won't believe but that doesn't stop it from being true.

I wouldn't shoot a .30-30 at anything living at 500 yards. If I did I wouldn't expect to hit it. I got lucky aiming at that target 300 yards away. I guarantee my sneaky brother got behind me and looked at how I was aiming and corrected it enough to make a hit. I generally get flamed for mentioning these things but that's not my fault. I call 'em like I see 'em and if people don't buy it then it's their loss.

I totally agree with the other things you said though. I know that game was hunted out where I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's. You couldn't scare up a rabbit to hunt in those days. There was almost nothing. It maybe was left over from the depression when I grew up because people hunted anything and everything to live in those days. They didn't kill all the possums. That's the one thing I saw a lot of along with skunks. And BTW people did eat possums back then or at least some did. I can point you to several books by a local author who hunted possums to sell to people who ate them. And that was before the depression. Jesse Stuart was the author and it one time he was as big as Stephen King. He died in the 1980's when he was 77 and he was in high school when he sold those possums. And I'm pretty sure they would have preferred rabbit and squirrel if they could have got them. I certainly would. I actually read this stuff in 2 other books he wrote about his own life and not a novel like "Hie To The Hunters" was. But Jesse author talked about game being scarce in his youth. I did see him mention seeing a deer or two which was uber rare when I was a young kid. Then all of a sudden you couldn't swing a cat without hitting a deer. Stuart saw them much later in his life too. He mentioned them in a book about his life in the 1950's.

BTW you can read about Jesse and his possum hunting days in the book, "Hie To The Hunters". That story all took place in my back yard practically. I might have married his niece in fact. He talks about hunting possum on the page I linked. The books sell for as much as $2500-$3500 if that gives you an idea of how popular he was. I have some of his first edition books with autographs. I don't have this one though. This book is about a kid from the city (if you want to call a town of maybe 1200 a "city". Jesse did. The kid runs away and moves in with a hillbilly family (like mine) and he learns a whole bunch of stuff in a hurry. Jesse liked our hillbilly heritage. Heck he made my county world famous for it. He traveled all over the world teaching and giving lectures. I love his books.

It wouldn't be possible to even kill a deer reliably with a .30-30 at that kind of range though. The bullets are flat nose and they drop off in velocity fast. It's just plain immoral to even try to shoot an animal at that distance IMO even if you were good enough to hit it reliably. And I don't think that's possible BTW. I was lucky on that shot. I just said it because it wasn't "that" much luck. I knew pretty much what to expect. We never used scopes in those days. We considered them hard to use when hunting small game. Plus they cost extra money which we didn't have a lot of in those days. 4 kids and a farm to run will do that to you. Dad had a decent job but not enough for scopes at least when we were very young and learning to shoot.

I remember at 6 years old being given the old .22 rifle and a single round with the instructions that it was my job to get a rabbit for dinner and to kill it cleanly. I consider my shooting accuracy as being just OK around family.
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Ha! Mom's family was twice as rich as yours! My uncle got TWO bullets to bring home something to eat. And you're right about people shooting because they had to. I grew up that way. And like you I am just OK by my family's standards. We all had our strenghts and weaknesses. But we all had a working knowledge of how guns work. And it doesn't take $1000 worth of gear to determine distance and drop either. Kentucky windage was the rule only it wasn't just windage. It was everything. If you shoot enough and you know how important it is to do it right you will get better at it.

Just for the record I saw my brother kill a ground hog at 600 yards on the first shot with a rifle he had never seen before too. He matched shots with a WWII marksman. BTW my brother hung out with another WWII sniper who taught him a whole lot about shooting too not to mention fishing, I have photos.
 
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