Hypothetical CCW Question

[PlayboyPenguin]

The guys question clearly stated the guy was already at your window with his gun drawn on you before you reacted. Under these circumstances I hate to break it to any Rambo wanna-be's but if you tried to pull a weapon you would be toast. You best bet would be to floor it and hope he doesn't bother trying to shoot you down or a least misses a moving target.

 

[Graystar]

I hate to break it to any Rambo wanna-be's but if you tried to pull a weapon you would be toast.

And again, I'm telling you that you're wrong. You can't argue with history. You're chances of shooting the BG and escaping injury are 80%.

I would guess two reasons why this is true. First, the BG doesn't really want to shoot you. He's using a gun for control, not killing. He's not expecting to have to shoot anyone. Second, He's not expecting you to pull a gun and start shooting. It's a big surprise for him.

I read of a study where prisoners were asked about guns...questions like what kind do they like, where do they get them, for how much. The number one answer to what they fear most when committing a crime was meeting an armed victim.

On one of those police video shows they had a grocery store tape of two BG holding up a store at gunpoint. The clerk pull a gun and started shooting. The BGs immediately turned and ran. One had been hit and died shortly after leaving the store.

Always, always draw and shoot. No talking, no delays, just draw and shoot. That is your best option when faced with a violent attacker.

(btw…large caliber good quality revolver, on the street, about 100 bucks)

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Graystar

Where are you getting this 80% success rate based on a situation where a person has a gun aimed at you from less than a foot away before you can react? I would like to see this data. It is sure alot different than any information I was ever taught.

 

[gbran]

Perp walks up to car door......... time to hit the afterburners on the propane flamethrowers mounted just below the door and aimed at potential perp location.

 

[Scott Daw]

I wouldnt try to drive off, I'd end up getting shot while trying to escape. I'd prefer to shoot it out. If he's waiving a gun at me, whats the chance he wants a witness? If he's that desparate to point a gun at someone to get what he/she wants then no one (including the soon to be deceased's family) can say with 100% certainty that the criminal was going to let me live. The lives of my family and I out way the life of a criminal. I'll deal with the legal matters like a man when the police show up after I call 911 to let them know what happened. Problem with that scenario is in Pennsylvania, according to a yellow flyer I got at the sheriffs office when I renewed my carry and conceal permit states as follows:

transportation in a vehicle- A handgun, rifle or shotgun, transported in a vehicle, must be carried unloaded, in the trunk, where they are not readily accessible.

If I follow the law, as its written then, it means that if I try to run Im dead, when I get jacked, the criminal will have my car and my gun. so someone else will die because I couldnt defend myself and my property.

I got this flyer when I asked the secretary if there was a rule book or flyer for people with the carry & conceal permits. she said no just this general flyer. Its a yellow flyer saying Lehigh county- Pennsylvania Your state firearms laws. and at the bottom it says lehigh county sheriffs office Ronald w Rossi, Sheriff

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Actually, the only statistic I have seen that comes close to this type of incident was on car jacking. When I was in LEO training in WV we were taught that people should keep their doors locked while operating a vehicle because if the assailent failed to gain entry and you could drive off the chance of the attacker opening fire was almost non-existant.

I am still waiting to hear where this 80% chance of survival if you draw a weapon in an awkward position like being at a steering wheel while someone else already has a gun pointed at you head a foot away comes from so I can read the study criteria.

 

[DevLcL]

I am still waiting to hear where this 80% chance of survival if you draw a weapon in an awkward position like being at a steering wheel while someone else already has a gun pointed at you head a foot away comes from so I can read the study criteria.

Me too.

 

[Graystar]

Where are you getting this 80% success rate based on a situation where a person has a gun aimed at you from less than a foot away before you can react? I would like to see this data. It is sure alot different than any information I was ever taught.

The 80% number is the average for all . I don't know of any stat that breaks it down further. But I don't see how a guy with a gun hijacking your car is any different from a guy with a gun robbing you on the street or a guy with a gun robbing a grocery store.

So what exactly were you taught, who taught it, and where did that information come from?

 

[Hemicuda]

Let me ask this question... What does a lifted Dodge Ram 4X4 exiended cab truck weigh in "Grains" exactly???

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Graystar

The training I received regarding car-jacking was raught to me while attending the state police academy in Cross Lanes./S. Charleston, WV. I would also like to see any study that showed people surviving 80% of the time if someone else got the draw on them first period. Where I come from you are taught if you are the second guy in a firefight to draw and shoot you are usually the dead guy. Seems like if that number was true 80% of police officers that had a person draw a weapon on them would be dead. I think you are confusing some old numbers of people surviving violent attacks if they were armed with this situation. Violent attacks statistics seldom include both people having a gun.

 

[Graystar]

PlayboyPenguin

So in other words, you have no study to back up your statements.

Don't police also tell us that complying with a criminal is the best thing to do?

Forgive me if I take anything that police say with grain of salt.

Seems like if that number was true 80% of police officers that had a person draw a weapon on them would be dead.

I'd say that conclusion is 100% wrong. The perp isn't a victim defending himself from a violent attack. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I am still waiting on where you got this information that you are using to keep telling us we are "100% WRONG". Just give the name of the study where you got the 80% number from in the first place. I would gladly act out this scenerio with you with paintball guns if you want to test your theory. I am willing to bet that everytime you try and pull a waepon you just end up with a brightly colored forehead and a nice welt.

 

[Graystar]

Just give the name of the study where you got the 80% number from in the first place.

I already did. See Post #23.

U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics

Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief

Guns and Crime: Handgun Victimization, Firearm Self-Defense, and
Firearm Theft
...
*A fifth of the victims defending themselves with a firearm
suffered an injury, compared to almost half of those who defended
themselves with weapons other than a firearm or who had no weapon.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt

I would gladly act out this scenerio with you with paintball guns if you want to test your theory.

And in acting out, how exactly would you get into the frame of mind of a criminal robbing someone and expecting them to pull out money, when you know I'm going to try to shoot you? Your suggestion is of no value. It's not an issue of speed. It's one of expectation and surprise.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

As I stated before that statistic does not say what you stated. It says "people defending against violent crime, burglary, invasion, etc" it in no way reflects the odds of being able to defend yourself against someone that already has a gun to your head. You are guilty of misunderstanding that information. It clearly stats that "in MOST cases" victims using guns to defend themselves were facing "unarmed" attackers or attackers without guns.

The study even states that most of it's data is based on the experience of "police" using their weapons as defense. Not everyday people.

It also states in the same study that in 83% of violent gun crimes the perp does not shoot at the victim. That would be more support for the "drive away" defense than anything else.

 

[Graystar]

The study even states that most of it's data is based on the experience of "police" using their weapons as defense.

Are you reading the same report I'm reading?

Because the NCVS collects victimization data on police officers, its estimates of the use of firearms for self-defense are likely to include police use of firearms.

"Likely to include" is quite a ways from "most". And considering the percentage of people that are in law inforcement vs. the general population, the number of police officers that would end up in the survey would be low. Also, considering how relatively safe the job of police officer actually is (as compared to livery driver or store clerk) I would guess that the actual number of police in the survey is so small as to be insignificant.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Here is the quote I took the word most from...

*In most cases victims who used firearms to defend themselves or
their property were confronted by offenders who were either unarmed
or armed with weapons other than firearms.

Here is the one about police.

Because the NCVS collects victimization data
on police officers, its estimates of the use of firearms for
self-defense are likely to include police use of firearms.

Then you just have to find out how many police shooting occur yearly then compare it to non-police shootings. Since police shootings were a higher number that would mean "most" of the data was about police shootings.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

you did not pick a fight.
war was brought upon you..
you are armed, thus you fight until one of you is dead.
war is not fair.
war is not just.
war has its casualties.
do what you gotta do.
that's the only thing you have control over.
may you be victorious.

remember also, the criminal is not a killer. he is using the gun as a tool to aid him in commiting the crime. otherwise, he would have killed you the moment he was in front of your window in order to avoid the potential of you being armed also. you are a victim, an easy prey. if the criminal knew that you may have a gun or even suspected you are not an easy target. again, he would have killed you asap. so you have time to draw your weapon. do it and make it count too. you will only get one chance..

 

[Graystar]

Then you just have to find out how many police shooting occur yearly then compare it to non-police shootings. Since police shootings were a higher number that would mean "most" of the data was about police shootings.

The NCVS is a random survey of the general population. It is not targeted to any specific class of people. Since there are about 2.3 cops for every thousand people in the US, the number of police in the survey should be .0023% of the total.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Random survey? How would a random survey determine the number of crimes committed? Especially since the vast majority of people never experience a violent crime. The study says the compiles statistical data. Not that they made some phone calls.

 

[akodo]

this is a good example of action beats reaction. Stomp on the gas, lean your body hard to the right to make a smaller profile and yank the wheel to the right. Hopefully you are leaning far enough down but not so far that you cannot see a little bit of where you are going.

 

[XLMiguel]

See, being raised Christian, I believe that if my number is up, I can't change it . . .

Ummmm, I don't think predestination is a big tenet of Christianity, it's more of a "free will" kinda thing, IIRC, Sister Mary Hitler not withstanding.

But to answer teh question, I'd floor it if I had an opening, esp. if I'se the only one aboard, Distance and deflection angle is my friends.

 

[Graystar]

Random survey? How would a random survey determine the number of crimes committed? Especially since the vast majority of people never experience a violent crime. The study says the compiles statistical data. Not that they made some phone calls.

From the BJS website:

National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) is the Nation's primary source of information on criminal victimization. Each year, data are obtained from a nationally representative sample of 42,000 households comprising nearly 76,000 persons on the frequency, characteristics and consequences of criminal victimization in the United States. The survey enables BJS to estimate the likelihood of victimization by rape, sexual assault, robbery, assault, theft, household burglary, and motor vehicle theft for the population as a whole as well as for segments of the population such as women, the elderly, members of various racial groups, city dwellers, or other groups. The NCVS provides the largest national forum for victims to describe the impact of crime and characteristics of violent offenders.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

How did they gather this info? Seems to me like it is just a load of crock if it does not use real world statistical data. Makes me think this study is worthless and the data too easily skewed.

 

[rayra]

as long as we're imagining, and if I'd had poor enough situational awareness to be caught like that -

Put it in reverse, cock the wheel hard right, and FLOOR IT. Park the car on the scumbag's chest.

If I've been dumb enough to be caught unaware to the point that the door is already open, and I have a CCW, feign sufficient compliance to afford a draw shielded by my interposed body, and empty my sidearm into the scumbag. Reload and scan for accomplices.

(shrug)

idle fantasy.

I'm in Los Angeles, no CCW for me. It's run them over, run away, or comply and hand over my stuff - and I'm not wired that way.
I've been under high stress situations many times, and haven't suffered from brain-lock yet. Was at the center of the Northridge Earthquake, with an 8-day old severed ACL from a ski injury; had my hand pinned under the suspension of a muscle car when the coil spring compressor failed; fell off the ruins of a dam while hiking alone with my dog and broke my right leg and ankle; been the subject of a mistaken felony stop and had 6 overexcited Ventura Co. Sheriffs pointing their sidearms at me. In every case, I remained alert and engaged in extricating my ass from the situation. I was even working at calming the adrenaline-amped deputy that moved up to step on my crossed feet and cuff me.
I'm sure I'll come up with something. And I do secure my vehicle and keep my head on a swivel when I'm in places where such events as a car-jacking are more likely.

 

[Graystar]

How did they gather this info?

It's a survey (as the word "survey" in "National Crime Victimization Survey" suggests.) They went out and asked people. I believe they make visits and perform phone interviews when conducting the survey.

Seems to me like it is just a load of crock if it does not use real world statistical data. Makes me think this study is worthless and the data too easily skewed.

The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) is one of two major crime indicators produced by the government. The other is FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports (UCR), and both studies are generally right in step with each other, indicating the same trends. These two reports are used by anyone and everyone who has to produce a report on crime in the United States.

Maybe you should read up on it.