Hypothetical Situation: A police officer tells you to help him arrest someone!

[GuyWithQuestions]

Earlier there was another thread kind of similar to this, but this one is more specific to the Strategies and Tactics forum.

The other day I was reading something from my state code that made me think a little.

I live in Utah. In doing some research, I found that many states have something like this in their state code. Utah's state code says:
76-8-307. "Failure to aid peace officer.
A person is guilty of a class B misdemeanor if, upon command by a peace officer identifiable or identified by him as such, he unreasonably fails or refuses to aid the peace officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing the commission of any offense by another person." That's in the chapter on interfering with the administration of government. So you can refuse to help the police officer if it is unreasonable to help, but if it is reasonable you could be in trouble.

So my question is: Although you may not want to be in a situation where you'd be forced to help a police officer, what are some strategies/tactics/techniques you could use to arrest and defend yourself from bodily harm if asked by a LEO to assist in an arrest, while still being considered acceptable force? I wouldn't want to be guilty of a misdemeanor for not helping. One thing to consider is: I always carry concealed (as do many others here), so you wouldn't want the suspect to find it on you and fight for it, and you obviously would NOT want to use the firearm on him.

This is what my state code says in the use of force in arrest (which is in a different section than "use of force by a peace officer", and many states have something similar to this):
76-2-403. "Force in arrest.
Any person is justified in using any force, except deadly force, which he reasonably believes to be necessary to effect an arrest or to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making an arrest."

I understand that you can't get legal advice or definite techniques/strategies while on THR, but you can discuss strategies, so I thought that this could be an interesting topic.

 

[mljdeckard]

It all hangs on REASONABLE.

Keep in mind, the cop is trained to A: Make the arrest and to do all the appropriate restraints and searches himself, and B: Call for backup if necessary.

Think for a second, if you were he, and trying to control a suspect, when a civilian with a gun walks in. You don't know who they are, or what their intentions are. I would tell him to keep back and keep his hands where I could see them. ALSO, ask yourself, if you were a cop, and you ask a citizen to help you, and the citizen gets HURT, NOW what kind of trouble are you and the department in?

I would be VERY surprised if a cop ever asked me for any kind of armed help. Pretty much imminent death overwhelming the risk is all I could imagine.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

I don't think a LEO would ask for help if someone was armed, and you could probably refuse to help if he did because the code says you unreasonably refuse, but let's say he asked to help and the suspect wasn't armed?

 

[rrruuunnn]

i just watched an episode of cops last night. the officer was having trouble and asked an unarmed citizen to get his pepper spray in the car and then asked to him to watch the BG.

 

[rrruuunnn]

the BG was unarmed but resisting arrest. the unarmed citizen got the pepper spray. but was unclear who fired. after the guy was cuffed. the citizen had to watch the BG.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

I could see this happening, and I would immediately jump in, and as many people here that are not fans of police, admit. If the chief LEO needed an armed posse you would be right down giving them a hand.

 

[rhweb32]

Being a LEO, I can speak from experience that the citizens that are going to help out with an arrest don't need to be asked. Going with that, if I need to ask someone for help when making an arrest, then they're probably not the person I want helping me. As for helping out when carrying a concealed handgun, WEAPON RETENTION is YOUR responsibility.

 

[rrruuunnn]

i forgot to mention about that episode of cops. the citizen voluntarily came to help and the cop started giving instructions.

 

[easyg]

So my question is: Although you may not want to be in a situation where you'd be forced to help a police officer, what are some strategies/tactics/techniques you could use to arrest and defend yourself from bodily harm if asked by a LEO to assist in an arrest, while still being considered acceptable force?

I really does depend upon the circumstances, but most likely I would not help make an arrest.

If the cop was in danger I would try to prevent the perp from harming him.
But I would not assist in making an arrest.

 

[ChopperKen]

I'm not much of a fan of police, I've met good and bad over the years.
That being said, I would helpout if a officer was getting the short end of the stick. If for nothing else he might remember me when/if he pulls me over.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Laws regarding this sort of thing differ- perhaps widely- from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It is your responsibility to understand what the law says in your jurisdiction and deal with the situation appropriately, especially if you are a CC permit holder.

In NC it's complicated- as is everything of a legal matter here, they've had about 400 years to complicate legal stuff and I don't think there has ever been a good legal housecleaning in this state.

Anyway, here's part of it, FWIW:

http://www2.chass.ncsu.edu/avery/arreststatutes.html

§ 15A-405. Assistance to law-enforcement officers by private persons to effect arrest or prevent escape; benefits for private persons

(a) Assistance upon Request; Authority. -- Private persons may assist law-enforcement officers in effecting arrests and preventing escapes from custody when requested to do so by the officer. When so requested, a private person has the same authority to effect an arrest or prevent escape from custody as the officer making the request. He does not incur civil or criminal liability for an invalid arrest unless he knows the arrest to be invalid. Nothing in this subsection constitutes justification for willful, malicious or criminally negligent conduct by such person which injures or endangers any person or property, nor shall it be construed to excuse or justify the use of unreasonable or excessive force.

(b) Benefits to Private Persons. -- A private person assisting a law-enforcement officer pursuant to subsection (a) is:

(1) Repealed by Session Laws 1989, c. 290, s. 1, effective June 12, 1989.

(2) Entitled to the same benefits as a "law-enforcement officer" as that term is defined in G.S. 143-166.2(d) (Law-Enforcement Officers', Firemen's and Rescue Squad Workers' Death Benefit Act); and

(3) To be treated as an employee of the employer of the law-enforcement officer within the meaning of G.S. 97-2(2) (Workers' Compensation Act).

The Governor and the Council of State are authorized to allocate funds from the Contingency and Emergency Fund for the payment of benefits under subdivision (3) when no other source is available for the payment of such benefits and when they determine that such allocation is necessary and appropriate.

HISTORY: 1868-9, c. 178, subch. 1, s. 2; Code, s. 1125; Rev., s. 3181; C.S., s. 4547; 1973, c. 1286, s. 1; 1979, c. 714, s. 2; 1989, c. 290, s. 1.

NOTES:
OFFICIAL COMMENTARY
Source: §§ 15-45, 14-224. Subsection (a) of this section changes the former law making it the duty of the private citizen to assist a law-enforcement officer in making arrests and preventing escapes under certain circumstances when requested to do so. Here there is substituted a broader, but permissive, statute. Thus the criminal sanction provided by § 14-224 is repealed. When so requested, the private citizen has the same authority, both as to extent and as to limitation, as the officer making the request, but he is protected from civil or criminal liability, if the arrest is invalid, unless he knows it is invalid.
Subsection (b) of this section brings together several benefits available to law-enforcement officers and makes them available to private citizens assisting law-enforcement officers pursuant to subsection (a). Except for the Death Benefit Act, these benefits have already been available to private citizens in some circumstances.
(1) Section 143-166(m) makes the Law-Enforcement Officers' Benefit and Retirement Fund available to "any citizen duly deputized as a deputy by a sheriff or other law-enforcement officer in an emergency." The effect here is to dispense with any formalities.
(2) The Law-Enforcement Officers' Death Benefit Act is applicable only to full-time officers, § 143-166.2(4). No funding problem is created by making the act applicable to the private citizen under these circumstances, for the benefits are payable from the Contingency and Emergency Fund.
(3) The Workmen's Compensation Act, § 97-2(2), defines "employee" to include "deputy sheriffs appointed to serve in an emergency, but as to those so appointed, only during the continuation of the emergency." We here again dispense with the formalities and make the act applicable to private persons acting pursuant to subsection (a). Of course, that subsection is limited to requested help in effecting arrests and preventing escapes, thus generally presenting an emergency situation.
(By way of comparison, note that § 160A-282 makes the benefits of the North Carolina Workmen's Compensation Act applicable to auxiliary police.)
The last sentence of subsection (b) makes the Contingency and Emergency Fund available, if necessary, to assist in payments under subdivisions (1) and (3) -- unnecessary as to subdivision (2) for those benefits are paid from the Contingency and Emergency Fund. While it should not ordinarily be necessary, it was thought advisable to grant this authority in order to prevent loss to the citizen in the event of the failure of other funding. Compare the provisions for the State Volunteer Fire Department in §§ 69-24 and 69-25.

Also useful is the commentary at http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/!may97.htm .

lpl/nc

 

[ilbob]

if a cop is so desperate as to request assiastance from a passerby, I would have to seriously consider aiding him, just as I would do for someone else in trouble.

I would need to consider my own circumstances in the decision though. For instance, if one was carrying an infant, you probably need to consider the safety of the infant first.

 

[TexasSkyhawk]

Being a LEO, I can speak from experience that the citizens that are going to help out with an arrest don't need to be asked. Going with that, if I need to ask someone for help when making an arrest, then they're probably not the person I want helping me. As for helping out when carrying a concealed handgun, WEAPON RETENTION is YOUR responsibility.

I'm former LE and I'm pretty much disgusted with LE as it exists today.

However, I'm disgusted with the institution, not every single member in the institution.

This would be a case-by-case basis. If the cop is trying to arrest a little old lady who rolled slowly through a stop sign, and then argued with the cop--he's on his own.

If the cop is trying to arrest some PCP'd puke and a hostile crowd is gathering and cheering the PCP'd dude on, damn right I'll help the cop.

As bad as I'm getting to despise the institution of law enforcement, I despise bullies and criminals even more. And any cop that is trying to handle a bad situation with a badass criminal . . . well, that's the job I prefer cops to do rather than sit on their asses and write traffic tickets.

Jeff

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

It's not that I'm so worried that I'll be required to help a police officer or else receive a misdemeanor. Part of self-defense, whether you carry concealed firearms or not, is being prepared for situations. And a responsibility when you carry concealed is that you know the laws, and tactics on how to deal with situations that don't require deadly force along with weapon retention. That's why I bring this up in Tactics.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

You're on your own dude. I'll sit here with my rifle and make sure they don't get away---but as far as going in and taking em down---NOT!!!

WE CAN BOTH SIT HERE AND WAIT FOR BACK UP.

Now if things were going bad on a traffic stop and I happened by---I'd help then.

But as far as shaking up hornet's nests---I think not.

I still have small children that need their dad---you can catch up to the scumbag another day. For my part that would be simply stupid.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm trained, so I would just help. I would leave my weapon in my car though unless it was an active shooting.

 

[bsf]

This is my opinion only, and in honesty, I have no experience w/ this type of situation to make an informed decision. I am not familiar with the laws in my state concerning this. That being said, I probably would not assist beyond possibly calling 911 to make sure backup was sent. My H2H skills are not good and I am not trained in arresting people. In addition, it is almost certain I would not know the LEO. I run from danger, not towards it, and I most definitely would not be comfortable “working” with a stranger (LEO) in a dangerous situation. In think it is highly unlikely I would ever find myself in this situation. If I were LE, asking some Joe Blow on the street to assist me in a dangerous situation would be at the end of my list of options. I think it is likely actual LE feel the same. As far as the legal consequences, it is not like I would be screaming my name and address as I was leaving.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

taurusowner,

I'm curious, what type of training? Arresting someone? Self-Defense? Combat? Military? LE?

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I'm former LE and I'm pretty much disgusted with LE as it exists today.

However, I'm disgusted with the institution, not every single member in the institution.

This would be a case-by-case basis. If the cop is trying to arrest a little old lady who rolled slowly through a stop sign, and then argued with the cop--he's on his own.

If the cop is trying to arrest some PCP'd puke and a hostile crowd is gathering and cheering the PCP'd dude on, damn right I'll help the cop.

As bad as I'm getting to despise the institution of law enforcement, I despise bullies and criminals even more. And any cop that is trying to handle a bad situation with a badass criminal . . . well, that's the job I prefer cops to do rather than sit on their asses and write traffic tickets.

Jeff

Best answer so far. Or, at least, one that I agree with most.

If it's the schoolyard bully who got a job as a cop and wrote a check with his mouth that his butt can't cash, sorry.
But, if it's in the interest of keeping the streets safe from some criminal, I'm all about it. And, I'll take whatever repercussions come as a result of helping.

 

[mike724]

Years ago, as I approached a convenience store, some dope jumped a cop while the officer was on foot speaking to him. That cop was DOWN and struggling, one hand on his pistol to keep it holstered. I ran up, dragged the dope off the pile, and was telling him to NEVER do that with a cop. as four more loads of officers responded, and controled the scene. The cop who was jumped said thanks, and let me walk off without even asking my name.

 

[firemanjohn]

Twice now I have been a DWI/drug related accidents where I, and once several of us had to jump in and help the officer. Small town and they're all alone. In one case six of us sat on a guy who was on PCP or something and waited for the officers backup to come from two towns over, the closest town did not have night coverage. So the answer is yes.

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

I would most certainly ask the name of anyone who helped me. I had a Navy guy help me hold down some drugged-up freakshow who I had just "assisted" to the ground after he tried to take my gun.

I got his name and put him in for an award from the city. Good deeds deserve recognition.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I imagine that it depends on the circumstances, and as such, would probably never have the police officer asking for assistance or telling you to assist in an arrest so much as screaming and/or begging for help.

There was an incident of which I've forgotten most details, but involved an altercation outside an auto parts store where a perp had a cop down and was, as I recall, physically beating him to the point of unconsciousness. An armed citizen witnessed this, confronted the beater with deadly force, and after a warning was given to no effect, shot the beater in the head, ending the attack.

That is how I expect most "citizen renders assistance to police officer" scenarios to go.

 

[clickclack]

Had somethign slightly similar happen this past Labor day weekend... I was in a larger town at a tournament and while traveling to the field form my hotel i came upon a trooper with a vehicle pulled over... Being as how i couldnt move into the passing lane to get away form the vehicles (doors opening suddenly or such) i slowed to 45 to pass slower than normal for my safety as well as theirs.. I saw a hand come up above the roof of the patrol car then then rapidly descend.. When i passed i saw 1 guy on his back holding the trooper and another guy overtop of him hitting him... I jerked the vehicle into the emergency lane and stopped... Handed the wife the gun and told her to lock the doors and shuck 1 into the chamber and dove out.. tackled the top combatant and instantly went into a full rear naked choke on him before i rolled onto my back... The cop seemed to get hope back and forced his way over onto his stomach where he was face to face with the guy holding him.. and hit him a few times before getting lose enough to pull his mace and hit the guy close quarters with it.. My guy went limp so i relaxed pressure on the neck area and snaked my arms into a full nelson and rolled onto my stomach with him under me.. I stayed that way with the officer holding his holder at gunpoint til backup arrived... During that time my guy had began to come around and was twitching and wrigling so i locked on tight.. When back up arrived they literally had to yell at me and pull on me before i realized it was safe to let go.. They asked me my name and i stated that if it wouldnt be needed in court that i prefer to remain anonymous... It wasnt needed so the officer thanked me from the bottom of his heart and went to get treated for facial lacerations and abraisions.... His colleagues thanked me as well and i went on my merry way... But ohhh my what a adrenaline rush..

 

[goon]

I would probably help and I would also want to be kept anonymous. I'd give them my name but ask that it not be written down.