I bought a Taurus PT709 "Slim".....

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03Shadowbob said:
Jimpro,
For what it is worth, I have owned 5 Taurus guns through the years and 3 out of 5 had problems. My track record is much different than yours.
I do not necessarily like Glock and definitely not the XD as I like steel and wood but to even remotely think that Taurus is in the same world as Glock or SA or S&W is a pipe dream. Deep down you know it, I know it and most every knows it.
As far as R&D, this kind of R&D?
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Well let me say this, they are in exactly the same league, big manufacturers use the exact same methods to make handguns..... (as a young man I spent 10 years of my life in the mechanical engineering field... I'm a journeyman machinist, from there I spent 2 years working in QC as a mechanical inspector and another 2 working in R&D, so I'm not dreaming..they use CNC machines to make all their guns, they use injection molds for their polymer frames.... they use similar materials, be it stainless, aluminum, or steel, they heat treat to the same standards, none of those mentioned companies use substandard materials, any claim that one is far better then the other is hocus pocus... Taurus, or Smith and Wesson or Berretta, etc...as a matter of fact Taurus bought their PT-92 tooling from Berretta and improved on it.. Taurus had some growing pains and most of the problems are from a few years back... Taurus has come of age, and yes they are everybit the gun that the other big boys are.... they are made overseas where labor is cheaper so you can save some money..... I could list the cheap guns that use substandard materials, cheap castings and such, but my conversation is about Taurus as it compares to other major brands.... I love my Berretta's, my Rugers, I liked the way my Glocks shot, but I wanted a safety, so I traded them. The only gun I found to have problems was my Walther PPK made my S&W.... I took it apart, deburred it and it's great now, but that gun should have never made it past QC......
 
jimpro, Perhaps you'd like to explain that equal quality manufacturing & materials to the gunsmith where I work. He sees 4 or 5 Taurus handguns every year which have cracked frames on the first magazine through the gun. I've looked at the log books, trouble tickets, and, in some cases, the guns themselves before they were sent back to Taurus. Smaller problems are quite frequent, and all problems are most common in their polymer frame pistols. Taurus revolvers, Beretta 92 clones, and 1911s rarely have problems though. If anyone is in doubt, send me a PM, and I can put you in touch with moderators here who can vouch for my creds.
 
The QC process..

Well ugaarguy, I can try, quality control is a numbers game and, a trial and errors game and a history game..... so lets say the QC department gets in 1000 polymer frames, hot off the mold, they don't do a 100% inspection, that's crazy, injection molds spit out pretty much identical pieces..(some things do require 100% inspection).. but still lets say plastic frames warrant a 10% inspection... those 10% are put through the ringer, if one flunks then the lot is rejected..... (hypothetical of course) also the manufacturer keeps records too.... If they notice a percentage of cracked polymer frames coming back then they rectify the problem, modify the design.... maybe work on the mold, thicken an area, try a different polymer formula... finally the design joins the ranks of their older designs the 1911s, their PT92s, and their revolvers.... newer designs of anything is more prone to problems.... because that process has yet to take place.....

So you mention 5 cracked out of how many? You didn’t list any of the other manufacturers problems, but they are there...
they go through the exact same thing....Are you aware of S&Ws sigma problems.... it hurt S&W but they had more history to keep their reputation in shape....When I was researching the problems I was having with my S&W PPK... the stories were widespread of problems... I've heard stories of Glocks cracked frames and blown up Glocks.

You may or may not know the same company use to own Smith & Wesson AND Taurus, ever wonder why the revolvers are so similar? They are almost identical...except for the price.... also recently Taurus is coming up with some great designs there too.... The Raging bull is a monster...

But it's true, like I said, Taurus had some problems in the past, their bad luck is our good luck, why? Because that is in the past... that combined with cheaper labor, you can save money with a Taurus.. and I highly recommend them. My intention is to save people money, put out the rumor fire.... Why spend $550 when $350 gets you a great firearm? With a lifetime warrantee..... just don’t let old stories turn you away from Taurus today.....
 
Jim,
You must have missed my original post in this thread that got you all defensive on an inferior product. I think I said that Taurus firearms in this area are now at the price point of a Glock, M&P, and XD or something along those lines. Why buy a $500 Taurus? Would you buy a $500 Taurus when you can get a much better gun with a much better reputation for quality for $500? Taurus price point of $300 is about right. It's not a HiPoint but definitely not in the same caliber of the other polymer guns. It is a good alternative for those who can not or for some reason just do not want to spend more.
BTW, I am taking bets on how long it will be before Taurus has interchangeable backstraps. Ground breaking R&D I tell ya. :)
 
Hell Shadowbob, I'm not defensive..I'm enjoying myself.. I don't have stock in Taurus, I just like 'em.... but I like a lot of brands... but just because some body else makes something doesn't mean R&D is not in order, when I worked in R&D alot of our "research" involved tearing apart the competitions product.... shamelessly I might add... and then figuring a way to do it your way.... Gaston Glock didn't invent the semi-automatic or even the tupperware gun for that matter, he's just the one that marketed it correctly..... Taurus was the first to offer the lifetime warrantee and that has been copied as well.....
 
R&D involves a lot of copying...

Hell Shadowbob, I'm not defensive..I'm enjoying myself.. I don't have stock in Taurus, I just like 'em.... but I like a lot of brands... but just because some body else makes something doesn't mean R&D is not in order, when I worked in R&D alot of our "research" involved tearing apart the competitions product.... shamelessly I might add... and then figuring a way to do it our way.... Gaston Glock didn't invent the semi-automatic or even the tupperware gun for that matter, he's just the one that marketed it correctly..... Taurus was the first to offer the lifetime warrantee and that has been copied as well..... My next pistol is going to be a FNP-45 USG http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=535&Itemid=70

I'm going with it because of the external hammer and 3 more rounds then the Taurus 845 http://www.taurususa.com/product-de...ory=Pistol&breadcrumbseries=&search=model 845
 
So you mention 5 cracked out of how many? You didn’t list any of the other manufacturers problems, but they are there...
they go through the exact same thing....Are you aware of S&Ws sigma problems.... it hurt S&W but they had more history to keep their reputation in shape....When I was researching the problems I was having with my S&W PPK... the stories were widespread of problems... I've heard stories of Glocks cracked frames and blown up Glocks.
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Yes, the first gen Sigmas had major problems, but have been corrected. We sell literally hundreds of Sigmas each year, and we've had one come back - a gun with a broken extractor after shooting a high round count of steel case Wolf ammo. It took the gunsmith less than five minutes to drop in a new extractor, and the gun was fixed. The Glock KBs have almost all been traced to use of reloaded .40 S&W ammo, or use of non-jacketed lead bullets; both of which are expressly forbidden in the Glock manual. In contrast, we're seeing 4 or 5 plastic frame Taurus pistols each year with frames or slides cracking on the first magazine, using newly manufactured ammo.
You may or may not know the same company use to own Smith & Wesson AND Taurus, ever wonder why the revolvers are so similar? They are almost identical...except for the price.... also recently Taurus is coming up with some great designs there too.... The Raging bull is a monster...
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I'm well aware of the Bangor-Punta era at S&W. Yeah, the revolvers are almost identical except that no small parts interchange, the grips don't interchange, and Taurus medium & large frame revolvers use coil mainsprings while S&Ws use leaf mainsprings. Taurus revolvers are like reproduction Shelby Cobra chassis with fiberglass bodies, and Chevy 350 engines; they look the same on the outside, but they're completely different on the inside. Unlike their polymer frame pistols, Taurus revolvers do work well though.
But it's true, like I said, Taurus had some problems in the past, their bad luck is our good luck, why? Because that is in the past... that combined with cheaper labor, you can save money with a Taurus.. and I highly recommend them. My intention is to save people money, put out the rumor fire.... Why spend $550 when $350 gets you a great firearm? With a lifetime warrantee..... just don’t let old stories turn you away from Taurus today.....
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The old stories haven't turned me away - the two cracked frames I looked at with my own two eyes this summer did. Taurus' problems with their metal frame guns are over, but not with their polymer frame guns. Their lifetime warranty is useless to me while the gun is in Miami being fixed & I need it (I also won't buy a lock equipped S&W for the same reason). They also won't send parts to dealers & gunsmiths, so minor issues turn into trips to Miami. They literally wouldn't send my gunsmith a grip screw to replace one a customer had lost: the whole gun had to go to Miami over a friggin grip screw.
 
Different strokes for different folks.....

Suit yourself ugaarguy...;).. like I said I don't own stock in the company. Sigma is not a bad route, if you don't want an external safety, (I do btw)....the 24/7 does or one could buy a M&P version (I like that gun) but would hope so for over $725..... you could buy 2 Taurus 24/7s for that price and if you were one of the 5 unfortunates a year that cracked a frame you'd have a spare....while they fixed the other for free.....:neener:
 
Lifetime warrantee

One more thing to consider..... if you have a handgun (or any gadget for that matter) that has a lifetime warrantee, and it breaks what are you going to do? Send it back, it's free..... Now if you have a handgun that breaks, that is going to cost you money to fix, what are you going to do? You might through it in the drawer and be done with it..... is it possible that a lifetime warrantee could contribute to a gunshop seeing more guns returned from that brand? Even from years ago...... after all "lifetime of a gun" is a long time....
 
So it comes down to polymers....

The old stories haven't turned me away - the two cracked frames I looked at with my own two eyes this summer did. Taurus' problems with their metal frame guns are over, but not with their polymer frame guns. Their lifetime warranty is useless to me while the gun is in Miami being fixed & I need it (I also won't buy a lock equipped S&W for the same reason).
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OK..... now I'm being obsessive, but I'm stubborn and I still need facts, reasons and logic behind a conclusion. So based on everything you wrote, the difference comes down to the polymer, because you saw cracked Taurus frames. I did some injection molding research. Well the polymer that Glock uses cost about $3.50 a pound. How much does a frame weigh?
(excluding the enormous cost of an injection mold) gun frames are pennies... literally... This has been discussed on this website before.. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-117666.html . So if Taurus's frames are not as good it's not about cost..... If you were a company and your reputation was on the line..... you already have $250,000 give or take in mold cost... are you gonna skimp on the polymer? Among injection molders the formula for a good solid gun frame shouldn't be all that tough.... I'm done now.... (applaud)
 
Jim,
We can see you are a staunch advocate of Taurus firearms and that is your right and there is nothing wrong with it. Taurus makes an OK gun at an OK price. However, it seems to me like you have one eye open and the other one closed.
Just cruise through any firearm board and type in Taurus and problem or issue or whatever and do it with Glock, S&W, SA, etc... I know, I know. It is the same guy going to every forum on the net every couple weeks bashing Taurus. How could I be so naive?
I prefer to have better odds with a better firearm and not have to try out the "lifetime guarantee." It just might malfunction at the wrong time, though unlikely.
 
You're right shadowbob, one guy can do a lot of damage to a company now that we all have the power of the press, so when I see meritless attacks on a good company and somebody can save themselves some money, I pipe in... what I like about Taurus is a good gun at a good price, when you consider how cheap a plastic frame is and the consistancy of CNC machining and stainless is stainless... Glock's profit margins are too high..as are a lot of other companies... they could sell their guns for the same price that Taurus does, or Ruger.... I appreciate not being gauged by a company..and nothing is better for all of us as consumers then some good ole fashion competition... and I show my appreciation by purchasing their product, however, some people out see a lower price tag and think lesser quality..... they are mistaken and their wallet takes a hit it doesn't need to. Sorry, I promised I was through..;)
One more thing of interest... my comments supporting Taurus, are already on the 1st and second page of google... what does that tell you about bad press.....? Thanks for you comment...
 
I bought a PT709 Slim locally for a really good price unfired...the damn thing shot and ran well. Until I bought a box of WWB... It had about a 50% FTE rate with these 115g 9mm rounds. After that I just couldn't feel comfortable with it as a CCW. So I sold it and bought a NIB Kahr CW9.
 
Wouldn't it have just made more sense to not put WWB in it if it didn't cycle it properly? Sounds like it worked good with other ammo.
 
03Shadowbob said:
Jim,
We can see you are a staunch advocate of Taurus firearms and that is your right and there is nothing wrong with it. Taurus makes an OK gun at an OK price. However, it seems to me like you have one eye open and the other one closed.
Just cruise through any firearm board and type in Taurus and problem or issue or whatever and do it with Glock, S&W, SA, etc... I know, I know. It is the same guy going to every forum on the net every couple weeks bashing Taurus. How could I be so naive?
I prefer to have better odds with a better firearm and not have to try out the "lifetime guarantee." It just might malfunction at the wrong time, though unlikely.
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I understand your point but it's certainly not restricted to taurus brand guns having problems. A friend of mine paid 1400 for a SA TRP that couldn't get through a magazine without stovepipes or FTE's. He picked it up, took it to the range, and sent it back the next day. I know of several people that had to send SA's back from day one because of malfunctions. Kimbers are another 1k plus gun that you can find tons of info on forums about malfunctions. My colt 1911 is machined and assembled like a piece of cheap crap compared to the others but has never malfunctioned until I got it really dirty shooting reloads and was one hand limp wristing it to see if it would stall. It FTB'd but I tightened up my grip and it didn't do it again.
I hear a lot of people bash Taurus but I bought a 709 slim and it runs fine, and I have several friends that have different Taurus guns that have never had any problems. As a matter of fact the only people I know that bash them have never owned one. I'm not saying their great guns but the one I have works better than my friends 1400 dollar 1911 did out of the box so you can get a lemon no matter what you buy.
 
Thankyou, I've bought 6 Taurus guns, two as gifts, one for my son, one for my ex-wife... NEVER had a problem with any of them, I had problems with a S&W PPK, fixed it myself, love it, I had a pawl break on a Ruger vaquero fixed myself, love it, But Never a problem with my Taurus guns, and I have never paid more then $350 for most, I paid $400 for my PT100.... LOVE 'EM, The only gun I've had that was obviously a cheap casting and sheet metal parts was a Bersa .380cc, a wire necessary for the double action to work was forever falling off, and the takedown lever just broke in my hand (little tiny casting)... but a lot folks swear by theirs, so maybe I got a lemon.
 
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I agree that things happen to the high end guns. No doubt about it. I am not saying that things don't. I am saying that there is no way a Taurus is in the same league as a Glock SA or S&W polymer gun.
If the prices were all equal would you still buy a Taurus or would you buy a Glock or a XD or M&P?
I don't think I bash taurus really but I will advise people to get a better gun. My track record is about 40% good, 60% bad with taurus (5 guns). Why did I keep going back to Taurus? Mostly because I thought "It was only a fluke to get a bad gun". And partly because I couldn't afford a better gun at the time.
Now the PT92, I will give it all the praises in the world. Over 10,000 rounds with zero failures.
 
I bought a PT709 Slim locally for a really good price unfired...the damn thing shot and ran well. Until I bought a box of WWB... It had about a 50% FTE rate with these 115g 9mm rounds. After that I just couldn't feel comfortable with it as a CCW. So I sold it and bought a NIB Kahr CW9.
__________________
Let the Journey begin.
-Windwalker
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Yep, I understand that.... I bought a car once and it ran out of gas..... sold that thing as soon as I could get more gas in it.

:banghead:
 
Yep, I understand that.... I bought a car once and it ran out of gas..... sold that thing as soon as I could get more gas in it
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I thought the guy's statement a little odd myself. Bait maybe?
 
I've owned my Taurus 709 for a couple of months now and put over 500 rounds through it without a single problem. All of those rounds were fired in basically two sessions of 250+ rounds each, trying to judge the trustworthiness of the little pistol. I shot CCI Blazer, MagTech, UMC, and Lawman (all 115 gr). I cleaned the gun before each session, but not during. I enjoy shooting the gun. In the past I have owned a Taurus 24/7 9mm, a Taurus PT111, and a Taurus Ultra Lite 38 Special (snubbie). All have been very reliable. The only problem I have had was a couple of stovepipes with the PT111 when I limp-wristed it. I have an arthritic wrist and tend to do that sometime. I also own an SA XD45 (4"), a Glock 19, and just purchased a Taurus 1911. I am really happy with each for different reasons. This includes the 709. I guess I'm a little different than most here because I like Glocks, I like Springfields, but I also like the Taurus guns.
 
Forgot one thing about the 709. I had a Don Hume leather holster (IWB) for the PT111 than was a little snug for that gun. Sold the PT111 but the holster fits the 709 like it was made for it.
 
The Ace Case IWB and the Tuckable version for the Sigma sized .380 autos fits like a glove. I have also tried the ClipDraw (glad the gun has a manual safety and glock style trigger safety). The clipdraw is very nice and 0 problems with reliabilty of the firearm with the Clipdraw in place.

Also, my 709 fires any type of ammo without problems, EXCEPT for WWB 115 gr FMJ. I have shot Hornady Critical Defense 115 gr, Speer Lawman in 115 and 147 gr, Remington UMC 115 gr FMJ, and Federal Hydrashoks in 137 gr. I have spoken with Taurus and just to relay some info. They say that this firearm will fire +P rated ammunition as long as it is SAAMI rated.
 
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