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I Designed a Pistol

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by CmdrSlander, Apr 25, 2013.

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  1. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Thousands of seconds on the street may cost you your life, a lot more important than finishing 2nd or 3rd. It's your dime though.
     
  2. CmdrSlander

    CmdrSlander Member

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    It might, but it's simply not practical. There's a balance that has to be struck. Also, if the slide has relief cuts like mine does, and therefore cycles in the same amount of time as a slide without optics, then it really is a moot point.
     
  3. Rubber_Duck

    Rubber_Duck Member

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    Some people are CCWing mini RDS on smaller autos like G19s. Trijicon RMRs are reliable enough to be used for more than just competition.
     
  4. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    Doing the math...
    1000 seconds = a million 1000ths of a second ;)
     
  5. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    I added the emphasis (bolding) above. I've heard this claim time and again, but have never seen anyone offer PROOF that the claim is true. A number of guns, over the years, have used the "slide inside the frame" technique, and not all of them are super-accurate.

    One theory of why "inside the frame" is better is that as the gun heats up, the slide/frame fit becomes tighter. Many knowledgeable shooter and gunsmiths argue that slide/frame fit only accounts for a small part of a guns accuracy potential -- maybe less than 10%. Barrel-to-slide fit, and consistent lockup, on the other hand, is critical to accuracy.

    I owned a SIG P-210-6 for a number of years, and shot it quite a bit. It is the "slide-inside-the-rails" gun cited most often in this discussion. That darned gun was a tack-driver from the day I bought it. It came with a proof target showing a 1.75" group at 50 meters (roughly 55 yards), but I could never match that. It didn't seem to get more accurate as the day went on -- it was the same. The reason the SIG P-210s are so darned accurate is the care with which they were made and fit -- the are like the proverbial Swiss Watch, with no slop or poorly fit connections.

    My CZs, and I've had a bunch, are very accurate. As is my SIG P-226 X FIVE. The CZ slide rides inside the frame, while the P-226 X Five slide rides outside (as do most Bullseye guns, which tend to set the accuracy standard.)

    Low bore axis is a good way to reduce flip, but you don't have to have the slide riding inside the frame to have that...

    You adjust them like you would any scope or sight... as explained above, by working from a rest. But don't confuse the RED DOT with a LASER.

    A LASER projects a red dot, and it's also adjustable as described.

    Red Dot sights -- some are shown in the photos -- have dots on a see-through screen (sort of like a scope, but the unit is obviously much, much smaller than an optical scope.) Both the red dot and LASER allow quick shots, but the LASER is arguably better for accuracy at a distance, while the typical RED DOT sight is for more-rapid use at moderate ranges (as the red dot can obscure distant targets.)


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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  6. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    As a red dot newbie, I understand this to be a function of the size of the dot -- which is specified as "minute of angle". Some red dot scopes specify a single dot size, whereas others offer 2 or 3 sizes and various reticles -- with the caveat that changing the dot/reticle may require re-adjustment of the scope's point of aim.

    Also, the red dot is not visible in the scope unless your eye is somewhat aligned with the scope. In fact, the red dot can be elusive at first, but with practice the dot comes up to the eye just as iron sights do once some proficiency is established. Regardless, with all else equal, the red dot offers quicker target acquisition and follow up shots in addition to being friendly to older eyes that better focus on the target (using red dot) than on the front sight (using iron, or fiber optic sights).
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  7. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    When someone mentioned the P-07, you replied:

    The newly announced P-09 is a full-sized version of the same gun. It has many of the features you describe, including the NATO-compatible accessory rail. It also has the ability to offer DA/SA carry (starting from hammer down), or cocked and locked carry, or a decocker mechanism in place of the safety, changeable by the user. That is pretty innovative.

    Several questions for you?

    Why is the 1911 GRIP ANGLE superior to the the standard CZ-75 Grip angle or the similar angle used in the Browning HP?

    I'll agree that there's nothing wrong with the 1911 grip angle, but most shooters speak more highly of the CZ/BHP grip angles when "natural feel" or "pointability" are discussed.

    If you like the 1911 Grip angle, and want the CZ mechanism you could use the CZ-40B as your starting point -- as that's what it offers. I've had one, and it's OK, but I don't think the CZ-40B's 1911 grip angle (which is what Colt specified when they worked with CZ to design it) is in any way SUPERIOR to the CZ or BHP grip angle. As good, maybe, but not better.

    Why use a dual nested, captive recoil spring?

    What functionality does that add or what problems does that prevent? I've only encountered "nested" springs in a couple of high-end guns and in some compacts -- but not in what might be described as a FULL SIZE service pistol. Field stripping could be a bit faster/easier with a captive spring.

    Why a "match grade" bar stock claw extractor?

    I'll admit I'm not the most well-read or experienced gun enthusiast, but I've never really heard of a "match grade extractor" before. What makes a "match grade" external extractor better than a typical external extractor?

    NOTE: If you CLONE the CZ internals, you're basically taking a gun designed to be DA/SA gun and asking it work as a SA gun; why not use the BHP fire control mechanism as your starting point? That would be simpler. Or, better yet, use the SIG P-210 as your starting point. Both of those designs are simpler than the CZ, and the SIG has a very innovative fire control assembly that can be taken out as a unit for service or cleaning.

    Why SINGLE ACTION ONLY, carried cocked locked? Why not the option of either? (How is that superior to a good striker-fired weapon?) If you want the option of BOTH carry methods, then the CZ mechanism makes more sense. As noted earlier, the CZ P-09 offers the potential of either, or the availability of a decocker.
     
  8. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    All true, but finding the front sight can be elusive, too, with conventional sights -- until you've become familiar with the gun.

    I suspect that getting proficient with red dot sights will be like LEARNING A NEW GUN -- you'll get better at it with practice (as muscle memory kicks in, as positioning the gun properly becomes a habit.)
     
  9. Skillet

    Skillet Member

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    Walt, your killin the man's dreams! haha I think what many people wish more of would be single stack pistols. the main reason why many first time pistol shooters buy a 19111 in the first place (let me know if i am wrong) is because they have smaller hands and want to shoot a gun that they can hold better. so, give them more options. Whats wrong with a single stack full frame 9mm or 40 for those people that have small hands but maybe dont want a 1911, chambered in 45 or in whichever, for price or for other reasons? I think there would be a market for it. perhaps.
     
  10. Potatohead
    • Contributing Member

    Potatohead Member

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    i want one...does it come with ammo?
     
  11. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Start of scenario:

    Johnny Browming comes up with a new handgun idea, and draws a sketch on paper.

    He sends the sketch to the Fabrick National factory. They take one look, conclude that Johnny is a gun design genius, and send him a check for a million dollars and promise a royalty of $100 on each gun sold. They put the new gun into production, and it is immediately adopted by every army, police force and terrorist group in the world. Johnny is famous, happy and rich.

    Then he wakes up, finds that Fabrick National replied that they have no interest and even if they did they would need to see a working prototype, full engineering drawings, patent documents and a proposal. Since Johnny can't run any piece of machinery bigger than a Dremel tool, and has no idea how to make a prototype or prepare drawings, he goes back to sleep.

    End of scenario. ;)

    Jim
     
  12. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    I think a lot of people get a 1911 because people who know more about guns than they do tell them that 1911s are what they should get. Expert advice, so to speak -- and not because the 1911 single stack grips fit them better. The biggest drawback to a single-stack gun (and a 1911) is that capacity is limited. Capacity is less of a concern when you're doing .45, but would be a matter of concern with a 9mm version.

    My first 1911 was a nicely gun-smithed 1911 built by a guy who used to participate here (until health problems forced his retirement.) Anyone remember George Stringer? Great gunsmith and nice guy. I've had many guns since then, and the two most impressive ones I've owned were a S&W 52-2 [.38 Special] and a SIG P-210-6 [in 9mm]. Both single-stack, both with MARVELOUS triggers, both wonderfully accurate. (Both the S&W and SIG had limited capacity...)

    Killing his dream? Or, maybe, just helping him to refine it. I'd like to understand some parts of the dream -- to know whether those parts are meaningful, or whether he just had a couple of beers before he sat down at the keyboard. <grin>

    The OP didn't specify SINGLE-STACK -- just single action -- single-stack was YOUR addition. But, why single action? I know 1911s are single action and they can have marvelous triggers, but one doesn't necessarily follow the other.

    Some of the other features he mentions MIGHT be good, but I'd like to understand why he incorporated them. I agree on low bore axis, and understand why it's important. But some of the criteria -- like wanting the slide inside the frame because it's more accurate -- may be based on false assumptions.

    I also like polymer frames and the way they can flex to make recoil more tolerable. Indeed, I've had a bunch of .45s, over the years and right now have a SIG 220 Super Match and a Glock 38 [.45 GAP]. While the SIG is clearly more accurate than the Glock, when shot from a rest, I shoot the Glock better -- and if I were doing IDPA again, I'd be using the Glock rather than the SIG.


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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  13. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Do these handguns with red dots (as pictured by CMDR on page 1) fit in holsters, or do holsters need to be special-made for em?
     
  14. WC145

    WC145 Member

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    I don't have any issues with the red dots on my pistols or long guns obscuring targets. My RMR02s have 8MOA dots, so the dot is 8" at 100yds, 4" a 50yds, 2" at 25yds, etc, so it isn't an issue at typical hangun ranges.

    You'll find that the FN and S&W guns that are optic ready have taller "suppressor sights" installed on them, this allows you to cowitness your dot with your sights. Companies that are modifying guns to take red dots (OST and Bowie Tactical come to mind) offer suppressor sights as part of the package. It makes dot aquisition much easier, line up the sights and the dot is right there. Of course, with practice, you won't be looking for the sights, the dot will be line up naturally as you present the gun.

    You need to check around, more holster makers are offering holsters that work with them all the time. Of course, as their popularity grows, more businesses will see that there is a market and move to get a piece of the pie.

    For work I use a Blade-Tech duty holster made specifically for the FNP45T with the red dot sight.
    SDC10067.png

    Holsters that are low cut in the front work, a long as there's enough room for the sight, so you don't necessarily have to have one specifically made for a gun with a red dot. sight. This is my FNS9, it also has a Trijicon RMR02 on it, the leather holster is a low cut Don Hume that was made for a HK USPc. It fits the FN well and accomodates the red dot nicely. The IWB kydex holster is from OST and was made to so that it covers the sight.
    SDC12001.jpg
    SDC12088.jpg
    SDC12090.jpg
     
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