I made a little progress with a "progressive"
- Thread starter Flechette
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People who drink the kool aid of the liberal and progressive news outlets every day and look no farther have blinders on.
The truth removes the blinders on a person who is willing to consider another point of view. Reasonable people can see the big
lie once it is pointed out to them. Also get this person out to shoot.
The truth removes the blinders on a person who is willing to consider another point of view. Reasonable people can see the big
lie once it is pointed out to them. Also get this person out to shoot.
Theohazard
Member
I like the sentiment behind the quote, but that's not the point here. Using made-up quotes and falsely attributing them to our Founding Fathers isn't a good way to make our case.
Tommygunn
Member
Yup. Should an opponent realize, or discover it's a lie, they won't credit any other argument we make, since if we lied once, maybe everything else is equally invalid.
There are many quotes which may seem to hit upon some truth, but are misattributed to incorrect sources, or even made up of whole cloth....or perhaps I should say, "hole" cloth. Be careful when using quotes. If you like a sentiment, it might be useful to put the idea in your own words and simply assert it as your statement, if you can back it up logically.
Tommygunn and Theohazard, I fully agree with the points you've made! It will be no problem for me to put the so called "George Washington statement" into my own words and own it myself! Thanks for pointing out the problems I could have created by using it as a GW statement.
Sadly, I got unfriended on facebook by a prog the other day. I was disputing the need for keeping silencers in NFA and tried to let them know, I think gently, that what they had been told about them was untrue. I guess they didn't want to hear the truth!
mikemyers
Member
Hardly anything is fully "black" or "white". The right answer is a shade of gray, somewhere in the middle.
To someone living in a big city, the idea of most people having access to a legal "machine gun", would sound like an even greater chance of their being shot. That "bump stock" is said to eliminate any accuracy, which makes it even worse.
If I had things my way, kids would be taught correctly about guns while growing up, and schools would go back to having rifle teams, and so on. That I'm in favor of. The idea of the idiots who go around doing drive-by shootings having (in effect) a machine gun sounds scary - I would rather not live in areas that have that problem.
There is no perfect answer. The best we can ever hope for is to find a reasonable answer, that we can live with.
Back to the thread - depending on who's listening, I'm both a "progressive" and the opposite, which makes me neither.
To someone living in a big city, the idea of most people having access to a legal "machine gun", would sound like an even greater chance of their being shot. That "bump stock" is said to eliminate any accuracy, which makes it even worse.
If I had things my way, kids would be taught correctly about guns while growing up, and schools would go back to having rifle teams, and so on. That I'm in favor of. The idea of the idiots who go around doing drive-by shootings having (in effect) a machine gun sounds scary - I would rather not live in areas that have that problem.
There is no perfect answer. The best we can ever hope for is to find a reasonable answer, that we can live with.
Back to the thread - depending on who's listening, I'm both a "progressive" and the opposite, which makes me neither.
Archie
Member
You may have. It depends on how his mind works. Should he have a 'seeking' attitude, he might just think about it more. If he's a drone, he will simply hide in a bunch of other liberal zealots and reinforce the propaganda in his head.
Good work, in any case. The cause of liberalism is based on emotion and emotion only. Much of that emotion is greed and envy as the basis. Getting one to think is hard, but it seems to work better than merely screaming, yelling and waving hands (which is what they want).
Keep it up.
mikemyers
Member
The real problem here is that NEITHER side understands why the other side thinks as they do.
One side thinks the other is just strange "liberals".
The other side thinks the first side is just strange "rednecks".
Without finding some common ground to work with, nothing will ever change. Both sides need to have a "seeking" attitude, and understand things from more than one point of view.
(Having said that, I think I'm going to forget this thread - I hate politics; I come here to learn about guns and shooting.)
One side thinks the other is just strange "liberals".
The other side thinks the first side is just strange "rednecks".
Without finding some common ground to work with, nothing will ever change. Both sides need to have a "seeking" attitude, and understand things from more than one point of view.
(Having said that, I think I'm going to forget this thread - I hate politics; I come here to learn about guns and shooting.)
Guitarmike
Member
Mike,
There is no middle ground when one side refuses to listen to facts. Unfortunately many of those calling themselves liberal or progressive are unable to separate how they feel from facts when discussing issues they are passionate about. This goes beyond gun control, name the issue and you will see it. All we can hope for is that some day the truth will be something we all can agree on.
rfwobbly
Member
...and they believe their own revisionist history, even when you document your points with articles from more liberal sources.
Tommygunn
Member
You're missing out on a "liberal" slant on the news if you watch conservative media, and on "conservative" slant if you watch MSNBC or other liberal media.
If you want to find out what you REALLY ARE MISSING OUT A LOT OF, you need to turn to British or European media.
In America it's basically only "slant" that is different.
Tommygunn
Member
The tactics the liberals use, i.e., obfuscation, deflection, intimidation, insolence, and volume, are trademarks of moronic behavior. Coached with catch phases they reach for the nearest microphone, each repeating the same scripted nonsense. Conservatives who believe that can crack a few nuts with facts and logic are in for a tiresome ordeal. There is some hope; middle ground still looks promising.
America has become divided and there are no easy answers for unity. Brainwashing in the universities and public schools is making a mockery of the first amendment. As this ideology takes hold, we are destined for cultural change. Unfortunately, I do not believe it can be stopped.
America has become divided and there are no easy answers for unity. Brainwashing in the universities and public schools is making a mockery of the first amendment. As this ideology takes hold, we are destined for cultural change. Unfortunately, I do not believe it can be stopped.
OP
OP
Flechette
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Most of the time both sides, liberal or conservative, spend their time blasting people with insults, which certainly does nothing to improve the situation.
I find that the best tactic towards making progress with a "progressive" is to calmly get them to express the "whys". For example, a Progressive may be for banning handguns. I would politely ask them "why" and thus force them to think through the issue.
After they get done spewing their typical gun control propaganda (you can by a gun at a grocery store with no questions asked) then try to split their beliefs. Ask them how a woman is supposed to defend herself from a 230 pound rapist. What about a gay man attacked by a group of bigots? If guns are inherently evil, why do we let our police carry them? If police are evil, what do you think would happen to society without them?
Believe it or not many of these progressives have NEVER thought about their positions to this extent. They have never really analyzed the repercussions and simply believed their peers. If you can just get them to open their minds, just a little, you have a chance of making them reevaluate everything they believe.
I knew a teenaged boy who was getting messed up with the wrong crowd. He was becoming the classic hippy with baggy pants creep that spent his days hanging out on sidewalks. Because of where I worked we had the chance to talk a lot. I told him my beliefs but not in a hostile way. He became intrigued and came by to visit more frequently. I noticed that he stopped hanging out with his previous friends, He volunteered at the local drug rehab (I did not even suggest that!) and joined the Army upon graduation.
He went through an officer's program and is now a colonel and happily married.
He deserves all the credit but I would like to believe that I pointed him in the right direction. Later I met his mother and she thanked me. Evidently he told her about me.
I find that the best tactic towards making progress with a "progressive" is to calmly get them to express the "whys". For example, a Progressive may be for banning handguns. I would politely ask them "why" and thus force them to think through the issue.
After they get done spewing their typical gun control propaganda (you can by a gun at a grocery store with no questions asked) then try to split their beliefs. Ask them how a woman is supposed to defend herself from a 230 pound rapist. What about a gay man attacked by a group of bigots? If guns are inherently evil, why do we let our police carry them? If police are evil, what do you think would happen to society without them?
Believe it or not many of these progressives have NEVER thought about their positions to this extent. They have never really analyzed the repercussions and simply believed their peers. If you can just get them to open their minds, just a little, you have a chance of making them reevaluate everything they believe.
I knew a teenaged boy who was getting messed up with the wrong crowd. He was becoming the classic hippy with baggy pants creep that spent his days hanging out on sidewalks. Because of where I worked we had the chance to talk a lot. I told him my beliefs but not in a hostile way. He became intrigued and came by to visit more frequently. I noticed that he stopped hanging out with his previous friends, He volunteered at the local drug rehab (I did not even suggest that!) and joined the Army upon graduation.
He went through an officer's program and is now a colonel and happily married.
He deserves all the credit but I would like to believe that I pointed him in the right direction. Later I met his mother and she thanked me. Evidently he told her about me.
Not necessarily....there's nothing wrong with understanding the opponent's viewpoint, as it will help tailor your argument tp his weak points.
Just don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out!
Sometime That is exactly now I feel !
If anyone is interested, there are some good books on this subject that are worth a read...
"The True Believer, Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements," by Eric Hoffer
"Emotional Vampires," by Abert Berstein
"The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness," by Lyle Rossiter, Jr MD, and George Foster
All are available on Amazon...
Whatever your political persuasion is, there is a lot to be learned and unlearned from these books. Very interesting stuff...
"The True Believer, Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements," by Eric Hoffer
"Emotional Vampires," by Abert Berstein
"The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness," by Lyle Rossiter, Jr MD, and George Foster
All are available on Amazon...
Whatever your political persuasion is, there is a lot to be learned and unlearned from these books. Very interesting stuff...
I totally agree...I took couple of antis to the range and they did enjoy it immensely...even asked me to do it again....
harrygunner
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I've read that conservatives understand liberals more than the reverse. I suspect it has to do with needs for group identity and peer appeasement. Conservatives tend to need less of those. I can't say for sure.
But when debating about the Second Amendment, I've seen the cognitive dissonance that happens when they approach the weaknesses surrounding their position.
Losing their ties to their group seems to override going where logical deductions lead.
Nice if you succeeded. It definitely depends on the person you're debating with.
But when debating about the Second Amendment, I've seen the cognitive dissonance that happens when they approach the weaknesses surrounding their position.
Losing their ties to their group seems to override going where logical deductions lead.
Nice if you succeeded. It definitely depends on the person you're debating with.
JTHunter
Member
Being on something like FB instead of "face to face" gives them the chance to turn off that which offends them. It keeps them from hearing facts that they do not want to face as it alters their perception of life.
Absurd.
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