seeker_two
Member
And a lame-duck Bush administration is an improvement HOW?
I see several anti-Bush ppl here..
- Thread starter willp58
- Start date
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And a lame-duck Bush administration is an improvement HOW?
abrahamsmith
Member
Zak: amusing, but flawed...
You are assuming that the backlash will pull in a certain preferred direction, but consider the scenario.
For a simple reference, consider the Libertarian political diamond thingy: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html Just hit "Score It!" to bring up the map.
Suppose the Fascists get (stay) in power, and pull the country south towards the Authoritarian end, but on the Conservative side. Eventually, enough people will get annoyed and will vote/act in another direction. Under the natural scheme, the alternative is the Commies.
When the Commies come into power, they will see a powerful executive branch, and they will want to work towards their Commie Paradise. "Ah, but now we are in power," the Commies say. "We aren't evil! We are for happiness and egalitarianism and food and shelter and work for everyone!" Since they are not evil in their own eyes, and they have the tools of the Fascist regime, they will use -- not dismantle -- that power for their own ends. Hence, we will have a Commie regime using the tools of a Fascist regime, which will try to work towards the "Liberal" side of the diamond. Since the path is roughly continuous over time, this will drag us straight through the total Authoritarian state.
In the mean time, the Fascists will regain some of their lost power, and there will be an oscillation between the two evils, averaging out to a complete Authoritarian state, until the next major world/historic event disrupts the cycle.
You are assuming that the backlash will pull in a certain preferred direction, but consider the scenario.
For a simple reference, consider the Libertarian political diamond thingy: http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html Just hit "Score It!" to bring up the map.
Suppose the Fascists get (stay) in power, and pull the country south towards the Authoritarian end, but on the Conservative side. Eventually, enough people will get annoyed and will vote/act in another direction. Under the natural scheme, the alternative is the Commies.
When the Commies come into power, they will see a powerful executive branch, and they will want to work towards their Commie Paradise. "Ah, but now we are in power," the Commies say. "We aren't evil! We are for happiness and egalitarianism and food and shelter and work for everyone!" Since they are not evil in their own eyes, and they have the tools of the Fascist regime, they will use -- not dismantle -- that power for their own ends. Hence, we will have a Commie regime using the tools of a Fascist regime, which will try to work towards the "Liberal" side of the diamond. Since the path is roughly continuous over time, this will drag us straight through the total Authoritarian state.
In the mean time, the Fascists will regain some of their lost power, and there will be an oscillation between the two evils, averaging out to a complete Authoritarian state, until the next major world/historic event disrupts the cycle.
Balog
Member
willp58 wrote:
None of the "electable" candidates will do anything good for us. As has been pointed out before, it's like choosing between the electric chair and the firing squad.
None of the "electable" candidates will do anything good for us. As has been pointed out before, it's like choosing between the electric chair and the firing squad.
Moparmike
Member
Even Kucinich (sp?) said in response to a question about his electibility: "Well, I am electable if you vote for me!"
Even Democrats find common sense once in a while, like blind hogs and acorns. If people here cant see that philosophy, then we truely are doomed.
Even Democrats find common sense once in a while, like blind hogs and acorns. If people here cant see that philosophy, then we truely are doomed.
Zak Smith
Member
Hi Abe,
I agree that once the tools of Fascism are in place, the party in power can use them. The point I was trying to get across was that even in that scenario, the abuses prosecuted by the more Statist/Fascist regime will be more disagreeable to more people than the abuses prosecuted by the more Socialist regime - which will by its nature want to provide the standard socialist benefits to people.
-z
I agree that once the tools of Fascism are in place, the party in power can use them. The point I was trying to get across was that even in that scenario, the abuses prosecuted by the more Statist/Fascist regime will be more disagreeable to more people than the abuses prosecuted by the more Socialist regime - which will by its nature want to provide the standard socialist benefits to people.
-z
longeyes
member
Zak Smith,
In ten years your fine thoughts will be considered hate/divisive speech (dangerously analytical) under either type of regime and you will find yourself withering in prison. It's possible that one prison--I'm not sure which one--will have slightly better creature comforts.
In ten years your fine thoughts will be considered hate/divisive speech (dangerously analytical) under either type of regime and you will find yourself withering in prison. It's possible that one prison--I'm not sure which one--will have slightly better creature comforts.
fallingblock
Member
well, seeker_two......
"And a lame-duck Bush administration is an improvement HOW?"
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If the Bush folks retain control of Congress and the Senate, there will not likely be any federal anti-gun legislation passed during the next four years.
If the democ-rats prevail, there will be.
It really is that simple .
I don't like the Patriot Act any more than the rest of you, but the democ-rats would have done the same, if not worse, under the circumstances.
It's a matter of choosing between what's being offered with a view to winning the vote, not merely 'wasting' a vote on some third party fantasy.
I'll vote for Bush for four more years of relative status-quo on the Second Amendment...after that, get out the shovels.
The choices aren't that appealing, and I like Tamara's attitude best, but that chocolate sundae is going to be a long time down the track, if ever.:banghead:
"And a lame-duck Bush administration is an improvement HOW?"
************************************************************
If the Bush folks retain control of Congress and the Senate, there will not likely be any federal anti-gun legislation passed during the next four years.
If the democ-rats prevail, there will be.
It really is that simple
.I don't like the Patriot Act any more than the rest of you, but the democ-rats would have done the same, if not worse, under the circumstances.
It's a matter of choosing between what's being offered with a view to winning the vote, not merely 'wasting' a vote on some third party fantasy.
I'll vote for Bush for four more years of relative status-quo on the Second Amendment...after that, get out the shovels.
The choices aren't that appealing, and I like Tamara's attitude best, but that chocolate sundae is going to be a long time down the track, if ever.:banghead:
Lone_Gunman
Member
Fallingblock,
I disagree with your statement that the Patriot Act would have been passed with a Democratic President in office.
A Republican controlled legislature and a Democratic president may well have not been able to agree enough to get any legislation through at all.
The Medicare reform bill, education bill, and patriot act may all have died if a Democrat had been president.
I disagree with your statement that the Patriot Act would have been passed with a Democratic President in office.
A Republican controlled legislature and a Democratic president may well have not been able to agree enough to get any legislation through at all.
The Medicare reform bill, education bill, and patriot act may all have died if a Democrat had been president.
fallingblock
Member
Maybe so, Lone_Gunman......
"A Republican controlled legislature and a Democratic president may well have not been able to agree enough to get any legislation through at all."
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Like the democ-rats did, any repugs would gladly have voted for a Patriot Act equivalent, or WORSE. What else could they do in the wake of 9/11, to demonstrate that they were doing something?
It's 'politician-think' at its worst!
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"The Medicare reform bill, education bill, and patriot act may all have died if a Democrat had been president."
************************************************************
Even in that scenario, with the congress so evenly split, I think we might have gotten worse than we did.
Don't misunderstand....
I'm all for 'gridlock' if it would work to safeguard our fast-disappearing freedoms.
But the democ-rats are not to be trusted in any capacity on the issue of RKBA.
The DNC and most of the party base hate and fear the concept of an armed citizenry.
That's just where they're at today....maybe it could be changed with decades of effort.
"A Republican controlled legislature and a Democratic president may well have not been able to agree enough to get any legislation through at all."
************************************************************
Like the democ-rats did, any repugs would gladly have voted for a Patriot Act equivalent, or WORSE. What else could they do in the wake of 9/11, to demonstrate that they were doing something?
It's 'politician-think' at its worst!
************************************************************
"The Medicare reform bill, education bill, and patriot act may all have died if a Democrat had been president."
************************************************************
Even in that scenario, with the congress so evenly split, I think we might have gotten worse than we did.
Don't misunderstand....
I'm all for 'gridlock' if it would work to safeguard our fast-disappearing freedoms.
But the democ-rats are not to be trusted in any capacity on the issue of RKBA.
The DNC and most of the party base hate and fear the concept of an armed citizenry.
That's just where they're at today....maybe it could be changed with decades of effort.
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