"I shot an arrow in the air, it fell to earth I know not where...."

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A bullet falling at terminal velocity, unless it weighs a few pounds, is not going to be lethal. That's basic physics, and cannot be debunked or refuted. Mythbusters confirmed it. A bullet of 100 or 200 or 400 grains simply will not have enough terminal velocity on the way back down to generate lethal force, though it could give a nasty smack.

What the doctor on that episode was talking about, and what most people are talking about when they talk about "falling bullets" ARE NOT FALLING BULLETS!! They are bullets fired AT AN ANGLE which maintain their ballistic trajectory all the way home. Got that, monkey boys? This is why firing off the hip into blue sky or at an acute angle towards a squirrel in a high tree, is dangerous. Those bullets, even from a .22LR, can keep considerable energy for long distances and impact in ballistic position. These can penetrate and kill. They are not "falling," they are simply fired bullets hitting a target a long ways off. Go look at the rear tangent on an old military rifle to see what I'm talking about. Consider how far out volley fire was determined to still be lethal.

A "falling" bullet is by definition coming down at terminal velocity and is no longer following a ballistic trajectory. These are no different from anything else falling on top of you at terminal velocity, from coins to tropical fruit. Not too much fun, but generally not lethal until we get to coconut size. Whether we're talking 30 ft. lbs. or 50, it's going to smack but not kill barring some freak set of circumstances. Arrows can kill with that level of force, but only with razor sharp blades on the front, a stabilized flight path and a higher sectional density than any rifle bullet.

They will not reliably kill someone if they hit someone, but they still can. 30 foot pounds in an eye or back of the head or hitting a baby (for the children :neener: ) could kill someone. It is definately going to cause property damage. Near where I live many outdoor shooting ranges were closed down because idiots were shooting skeet with rifles(though they have a trajectory at that angle and so were much more dangerous) and people living within a few miles complained of dead animals and damaged property.

A few hundred grains at a few hundred feet per second would be like getting stabbed with a blunt metal rod with 50 pounds behind it for a split second. That would surely hurt and cause damage, and could pose serious danger to anyone it struck in a bad spot on their body. Most airguns do not have 30 pounds of force, and they can be used to hunt with great shot placement. I have taken rabbits with 6 foot pounds and a steel bb. I think that could easily kill someone in the eye or if it happened to hit the spine and damage the spinal cord etc. Especialy with boat-tail rounds as even the rear of them tapers somewhat to a point. So landing rearwards as they have been documented to do can cause serious injury and property damage. Something like a shotgun slug shot into the air has plenty of lethal force coming back down at a couple hundred feet per second.

Birdshot is the only relatively safe thing to be shooting into the air, and it is usualy illegal.
 
Very true about the angle.

When I used to live in New Orleans, I knew a girl that got tagged with a 9mm in the shoulder while being UNDER a balconey in the French Quarter. The police believe that the shot came from somewhere on the other side of the Mississippi River on the West Bank.

A lot of bone-heads like to shoot in the air to celebrate things like New Years, Mardi Gras, July 4th, etc....


I saw that Mythbusters, too. I was VERY skeptical when they were asserting that a falling bullet wouldn't do harm-- after seeing this girls scar. But angle made sense.


John
 
Mythbusters could not find the .30-06 rounds they were firing into the air so they had a baloon drop them from 400 feet for comparison. 150 grains dropped from 400 feet is not going to be much different than a 9mm dropped from the same distance which they used as comparison as both weigh very similar and 400 feet is not much time to speed up. From 400 feet they would only be traveling at roughly..let me figure it out: assuming a vacuum (wind resistance changes it, but not enough at 400 feet to matter as you will see) something falls at about 9.8 meters per second faster every second, -resistance which increases as speed goes up. That is about 29.4 FPS. 400 would be covered before it sped up much. In a perfect vacum without air resistance that distance would be covered before it got up to 147 FPS, air resistance reducing it even further. 1 second 29.4,2 seconds 58.8, 3 seconds, 88.2, 4 seconds, 117.6, 5 seconds, 147. 441 feet would be traveled in 5 seconds in a vacuum. Only allowing it to get up to 147 FPS. So of course thier demonstration did little damage. 155 grains falling at 147 feet per second negative air resistance would not pose a great threat. Add many many more seconds as a rifle round would actualy take to return to earth as the round approaches its terminal velocity and your talking a lot more damage.

They also measured how far it went into the ground which is an absolutely poor method. You can fire a powerful round into the ground or a low powered round into the ground and depending on the makeup of the ground and how rugged the bullet not have a great difference. Even thier own earlier tests showed fired into ballistic gelatin thier rifle round (a .30-06 which is far more deadly) went through a single block and thier 9mm round went through three blocks. Does that mean the 9mm does more damage? Most certainly not.

So mythbusters was very false. Given thier own data for the amount of seconds the 9mm rounds took to come back to earth which was 39 seconds, if we assume most of that time was spent coming back down, lets say 75% of the time was coming down, as going up it went up with full speed (of course slowing as it went higher), and came down at falling speed. 75% of 39 would be 29.25. In 29.25 seconds in a vacuum that round would speed up to 29.4X29.25= 859.5, which is far faster than it's terminal velocity in atmosphere, meaning that with that much margin of error it is pretty safe to say it would be close to its terminal velocity when it returned even with air resistance and drag, and that the rifle round would have definately reached its terminal velocity. If someone wants to figure the terminal velocity of it go ahead, but it is going to be a around few hundred feet per second. Meaning that the 400 foot test that would not have allowed it to even approach 145+ FPS was VERY innaccurate.
Even if only 50% of the 39 seconds it was in the air was spent coming down that would equate to 19.5 seconds falling reaching a speed of 573.3 FPS in vacuum which is faster than its terminal velocity in air, meaning it likely would reach close to it's terminal velocity coming down. So it would still be going a few hundred FPS when it impacted, far greater than the under 145 FPS allowed in the 400 foot drop test. That is just the 9mm and not even the rifle round that would surely reach its terminal velocity.
They even estimated the 30-06 was going to around 10,000 feet, and the 9mm to 4000 feet. Plenty of falling distance to reach terminal velocity according to thier own math.
Mythbuster's busted. The idiots are just lucky they were not hit by one of the falling 30.06 rounds instead of being unable to find them.

Angle and trajectory makes them much deadlier, but heavy bullets that get high can be deadly even falling straight down.

P.S. Here is a link describing the steps taken in the mythbuster episode proving everything I said http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/04/episode_50_bullets_fired_up_vo.html
They VERY incorrectly determined the terminal velocity of a round. There is a simple formula you can use to determine terminal velocity but whatever they did they determined less than half of its real terminal velocity as the terminal velocity. Terminal velocity for a Sky Diver is over 150 FPS which is as fast as they determined for a bullet with much great sectional density, far less drag/mass ratio etc. Correct math gives a 30-06 round around 99m/s or 297 feet per second velocity. Over double the speed the 400 foot drop test would reach in a perfect vacuum, nevermined with some air resistance.

Here is the formula for terminal velocity : http://www.karlscalculus.org/l12.1.html
 
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The last time I attended a "Friends of the NRA" dinin' 'n shootin' event, I was forbidden from coming to the "Raise Pistol" position at the range. What with gated golf-burb encroachment, and all, it's seemingly too built up around here to take the chance of letting one off we know not whither.

I was told to point the thing at the ground when not pointing it at the target. No obvious big rocks were there, at least.
 
I bought a bunch of rubber slug and pellet loaded 12ga several years ago. I have had dogs get in and kill goats and sheep. I also beefed up my fences so I've not had cause to use them. The last thing I want to do is kill a neighbors dog but I imagine rubber buckshot from 200' away would be a real convincer. Who needs permanent bad blood or a law suit from an irate neighbor?

Years ago I broke my own dogs aggressiveness toward my livestock with a BB gun and rump shots from 50-100 feet. A BB gun might be a good bet. It makes a noise that is connected with a sting.

A coyote wouldn't get the same treatment on my property.
 
A 180 grain 30-06 at a terminal velocity of 297 feet per second would impact from the sky if fired straight up with 35.26 foot pounds of energy. If that impacted around the neck or between the head and shoulder it could easily kill someone traveling through thier torso. It is a gamble what 35.26 foot pounds would do to the top of someones skull, but the top requires far less foot pounds to penetrate than the front of the skull. It would definately penetrate any skin it came into contact with, and likely continue until stopped by bone.

That is fired straight up, with even a slight trajectory that number goes significantly upwards.

A 155 grain would impact with 32.32 foot pounds of energy at its terminal velocity fired straight up.

A 150 at 29.83 foot pounds fired straight up.

So you can see it is directly proportional to the weight of the bullet going up (assuming it is a round that goes high enough to approach terminal velocity) as to how many foot pounds of energy it comes down with.

A 240 grain .44 Magnum round falling around the same velocity would give 47 foot pounds of energy. However only reaches a terminal velocity of about 76 meters per second or 228 feet per second. Meaning it actualy comes down with only 27.71 foot pounds of energy.
A 440 grain .500SW fired straight up into the air would come down with around 50.80 foot pounds of energy, clearly enough to kill, and this also demonstrates that a handgun round can actualy be deadlier than a rifle round fired into the sky if it goes high enough to reach velocity on its return, even though the rifle would have far more energy fired horizontaly at a target.

A desert eagle firing a 325 grain .50AE round straight up would generate around 35+ foot pounds of energy falling straight down of into the top of someone's head.

A 40 grain .22LR depending on whether the round tumbled or fell straight would generate around 2.87 foot pounds of energy falling straight down.

If a 40 grain .22LR round comes down with 2.87 foot pounds of energy, imagine how low a foot pound energy level a 2.58 grain #5 birdshot pellet falling would achieve yet The Deer Hunter posted that they stung.
You better believe 50 foot pounds from the .500SW round falling would more than sting.

This clearly shows the weight of the bullet being fired STRAIGHT up, and to a lesser extent how high it goes and its shape and therefore drag is the main factors in deciding how many foot pounds it lands with.
 
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Forgive me for sounding off on this one. First let me say that I personally know a person who's daughter was seriously injured by a "falling" bullet on the $th of July while watching fireworks from their second story balcony. Her father works with me at the prison we're employed at. I don't care what the clowns on Myth Busters discovered. Shooting into the air is simply foolish and irresponsible - period. What is one of the FIVE BASIC RULES regarding firearms? NEVER shoot at something you do not want to hit. Another one - ALWAYS point your firearm in a SAFE direction. I cannot believe that there could be ANY discussion about this. There is only one correct response - NEVER shoot into the air to scare off game or for any other reason if you are not ABSOLUTELY sure of what is in range and what or who is in the path of your bullet! I don't give a **** if it's rubber pellets or rubber bands. City limits or out in the country. Do you want to take a chance with a Nosler ballistic tip coming down you know not where? DON'T DO IT, EVER! There is absolutely no gray area here. Come on, guys. If I get peppered while out in the field bird hunting you can damn sure rest assured that the shooter is going to hear it from me. O.K. my rant is over. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.
 
I don't care what the clowns on Myth Busters discovered. Shooting into the air is simply foolish and irresponsible - period

That is in fact exactly what they said. Maybe you people should actually watch the show. They said quite clearly you should never, ever do it. Nor is anyone here saying you should shoot into the air. So settle down.
 
Correct math gives a 30-06 round around 99m/s or 297 feet per second velocity.

So what is that, 30 ft. lbs.? That's nowhere near enough to kill barring some extraordiary circumstance.

Here is an article of people hunting and killing animals with 12-20 foot pounds from pellets guns. Including birds, woodchucks, rats etc.
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2006/02/shooting-at-animals-with-airguns.html

If you do not think 30 foot pounds hitting you from a small round is not very dangerous I do not know what to tell you.

#8 shot would have some 397 .09″ pellets with an energy of 4 foot/pounds per pellet.

Let me repeat that, #8 shot only has 4 foot pounds at the muzzle per pellet.


#4 shot will deliver 3.91 foot pounds of energy per pellet at 40 yards

Take this from an hunting article:

"information developed by Tom Roster of the Oregon Institute of Technology (who's one of the experts on shot ballistics) shows that a load of No. 4 lead (the numbering indicates size . . . higher numbers refer to smaller shot) with a rated velocity of 1,255 feet per second (FPS) will retain 3.65 foot-pounds of energy per pellet at 40 yards, and 2.36 foot-pounds at 60 yards."
So a 40 grain .22LR round shot straight up falling from the sky at 2.87 foot pounds has more foot pounds of energy coming down than each pellet of #4 birdshot fired at a target 60 yards away.

#4 buckshot has 70 foot pounds per pellet at the muzzle, and penetrates 9" - 11".
Here is a table of energy per pellet from a 12 gauge at 40 yards using birdshot.
F.P.S. Shot Size Energy
1165 5 3.04
1200 5 3.13
1255 5 3.34
1315 5 3.52
1330 5 3.56
1165 6 2.14
1200 6 2.23
1255 6 2.36
1315 6 2.49
1330 6 2.52
1200 7.5 1.26
1240 7.5 1.32
1295 7.5 1.38
1330 7.5 1.42

You still think 30 foot pounds landing on you is nothing? Let me try to find the right pellet size in a shotgun to equal around 30 foot pounds per pellet for you so you can think about it better.
 
A while back, I looked up the allowable velocities and masses for golf balls in The Rules of Golf, and figured that a golf ball is allowably launched at about the same energy as the bullet from an old-fashioned .32 S&W Short pistol cartridge.

I'm sorry, I don't have my calculations or references handy, but I do believe that none of us here would care to be hit in the face by a strongly-hit golf ball.

I think I remember proposing, once, over at The Donovan's blog, that golf balls, limited to the maximum velocity approved by said Rules of Golf, would be the perfect riot-control ammo.

I mean, they bounce like crazy!
 
BB birdshot (largest birdshot before buckshot at 1200 FPS, the shot weighing 8.75 grains per pellet(50 total), would deliver 27.985, or basicly 28 foot pounds of energy per pellet at the muzzle. You still think 30 foot pounds falling from the sky is nothing (that is if you manage to shoot it perfectly straight up.)

#4buckshot at 1100 FPS and and 20.6 grains per pellet would give 55.36 foot pounds of energy per pellet at the muzzle (27 total pellets)

So #4 buckshot at somewhere under 35 yards should meet your 30 foot pounds of harmless fun per pellet.
Do you want to be shot with #4 buckshot from 100 feet away? That is your harmless fun your raining down on people, if you can shoot perfectly straight up with a 30-06 Cosmoline.


A while back, I looked up the allowable velocities and masses for golf balls in The Rules of Golf, and figured that a golf ball is allowably launched at about the same energy as the bullet from an old-fashioned .32 S&W Short pistol cartridge.

The big difference being that the golf ball applies those foot pounds over a large round area of a few inches, and the bullet applies them over the width of the pointed bullet, a fraction of an inch. So the bullet penetrates and kills, and the ball would just bruise tissue or crack a bone if at the same energy.
 
You still think 30 foot pounds landing on you is nothing?

I never said that, boyo. I said it was not LETHAL saving extraordinary circumstances. And it isn't. One pellet of No. 4 isn't lethal either barring extraordinary circumstances.

You seem to be on some strange crusade here. What's the point? Nobody is advocating shooting straight up in the air.

That is your harmless fun your raining down on people, if you can shoot perfectly straight up with a 30-06 Cosmoline.

?? when did I say it was fun to get hit with a .30'06?

You seem to be fixated on shotgun pellets, so let's look at the real thing. .33 Cal. buckshot weighs about 54 grains and at 1250 fps hits with 187 ft. lbs. THIS is lethal. If your pellets are only hitting with 30 ft. lbs., you're going to need a hell of a lot of them to kill a person. One at a time, BB's are just that--BB's.
 
I use shotgun pellets because I doubt there is ammo that low. However some of the more powerful airguns are about 30 foot pounds.

Here is a kid on trial in the UK who killed another kid with a pellet gun shooting him through the eye. In the UK air rifles are limited to 12 foot pounds of energy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=437191&in_page_id=1770

A guy that killed a 2 year old with a shot from a less than 12 foot pound air rifle
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4134398.stm

Many more examples but I would rather not post a ton of anti type links showing a lethal misuse of airguns when the message we all try to give is pro gun.
 
Another small suggestion:

My grandfather used to load up light .410 loads with rock salt and get rid of varmits that way. Rock salt is obviously not as aerodynamically efficient as shot, and the light loads didn't kill the varmits, but gave them enough of a lasting smarting that they wouldn't return. I'm sure this can be repeated with just about any shotgun caliber, and seems a rather practical way to go, especially if you have livestock in the vicinity. The drag on the blocky salt means they won't go nearly as far, as well.
 
IF you could shoot a bullet straight up... remember this is IF...

www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/faq.htm#Q13

"Q: If a bullet is fired vertically from a rifle, what will its terminal velocity be if it strikes the top of someones head on its way back down?

A: This question is hard to answer in general. The best I can give is a "worst-case" estimation.
When a gun is fired vertically, the bullet after some time reaches a summit where the velocity is zero, and then falls back. The bullet will fall back base first which is hard to calculate. I can estimate the velocity if it would fall nose first, that is the normal flying position for which drag is well known - so the real terminal velocity will actually be smaller than the following prediction.

For a .22 lr bullet (m=40 grain, v0 = 1150 ft/s)
the summit will be at 1164 ft, the total flight time 30 seconds and the terminal velocity 270 ft/s

For a SS109 military bullet (m= 55 grain, v0=3200 ft/s)
the summit will be at 2650 ft, the total flight time 44 seconds and the terminal velocity 404 ft/s.
For this bullet are indications that it will become unstable. This will further reduce summit height and terminal velocity considerably. "
_______

From: How do bullets fly? www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/
 
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Rifle fired straight up or nearly straight into the air.

The bullet stops at the top (apogee) and begins falling back to earth (acceleration of gravity).

All the while, this bullet is still spin-stabilized due to the rifling in the barrel. It's spinning on the way up and on the way down, making for a more aerodynamically efficient falling body. Even if not fired in the perfectly vertical plane, the spin could still stabilize it on its way down, bringing the sucker back to efficient falling body.
(There's an optimal angle in their somewhere in regards to the safest, but I ain't gonna' broach it. Don't care anyway, 'cause I don't plan on doing it.)

Lead is denser than frozen water (google hailstone injury and death).

Spin-stabilization, gravity, aerodynamics and mass density = death.
 
If it's spin stabilized it's coming down base first - actually it's coming down that way no matter what if you shoot straight up. Hail stones are round for the most part, but bullet bases are flat and not nearly as aerodynamic, so it's apples and oranges when making off the cuff predictions.

John
 
you could just shoot the dog then you wouldnt have to worry about the bullet coming back down and hurting someone :D
 
John,
I'm speaking of things that originate in the atmosphere, not meteors.
Falling apples to falling apples ..
I'm trying to make the point that hailstones can injure and kill and it is easy to find on a quick search compared to falling bullet injury/death.

Hailstones are no where near as aerodynamically efficient due to their lower density and lack of spin stabilization. And yet hailstones, although rare, have killed. Consider a 1/2 pound baseball-sized hailstone falling at 100mph or a 100grain bullet falling at 200mph. Energy=velocity squared and all that.
Icepicks vs. a broomstick .. which one is easier to poke holes with?

Sure, a round body of the same characteristics is better, but the other factors, density and stability overwealm the shape factor.

That nicely vertical and stable bullet, base turned meplat, is small, heavy and is coming in fast-like. Faster than hail, which kills from above too!
 
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If you fire into the air, you are violating rule number 4. Period.

And they do come down with potential lethal force. I don't care what the experts say. This New Year's Eve, a bullet came down, and went through, the hood of a friend of mine's suburban.
 
All the while, this bullet is still spin-stabilized due to the rifling in the barrel. It's spinning on the way up and on the way down, making for a more aerodynamically efficient falling body

How can it maintain its spin after falling back? I think you are seriously overestimating the power of that spin.
 
www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

"Topic of the Month: March 2001
Bullets in the Sky"

"Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4 falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the platform. One of the bullets striking the platform left a 1/16 inch deep mark in the soft pine board. The bullet struck base first.

Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound."
 
Too much math causes headaches.
My rules:
1) Don't cause any projectiles to be flying around without a known destination.
2) Try not to be in the path of anyone else's projectiles, freefalling or otherwise.

:p
 
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