"I shot an arrow in the air, it fell to earth I know not where...."

[Sylvan-Forge]

It's for the chilrens!

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Based on the results of these tests it was concluded that the bullet return velocity was about 300 f.p.s. For the 150 gr. bullet this corresponds to an energy of 30 foot pounds. Earlier the Army had determined that, on the average, it required 60 foot pounds of energy to produce a disabling wound. Based on this information, a falling 150 gr. service bullet would not be lethal, although it could produce a serious wound."

And when one of these bullets strikes a babies soft spots (cranial fontanelles)
all of the army's predictions go out the window.

Imagine all the upturned heads during the 4th of July, all those arms being fired "straight up" ... all those eyes just waiting for a bullet. Don't need 30ft-lbs to get the brain through the eye. No way.

For larger calibers the bullet terminal velocity is higher since the bullet weight is greater in relation to the diameter.

Depends on the bullet contruction. Just say if you add more weight to the same size caliber, say from 150gr to 180gr, then you get a marked difference in velocity.
Though more weight in general still means more momentum.

In 1920 the U.S. Army Ordnance conducted a series of experiments to try and determine the velocity of falling bullets. The tests were performed from a platform in the middle of a lake near Miami, Florida.

Maybe 2' above sea-level.
Higher elevations with the attending lower air-density will allow bullets to fall at greater speeds, thereby bringing greater risk to even fully formed and forward-gazing noggins.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

continued...

Out of the more than 500 shots fired from the test platform only 4 falling bullets struck the platform and one fell in the boat near the platform.

Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds.

Wind can have a dramatic effect on where a vertically fired bullet lands. A 5 mile per hour wind will displace the 150 gr. bullet about 365 ft based on the time it takes the bullet to make the round trip to earth. In addition the wind at ground level may be blowing in an entirely different direction than it is at 9,000 feet. It is no wonder that it is so difficult to determine where a falling bullet will land.

These variable wind layers could combine to carry that "straight up" bullet over the hill there, into that township, well away from where one might consider isolated ground.

 

[rockstar.esq]

So what I want to know is if there are any manufactured shotshells with rock salt as the payload? Further I'd love to know if the shot cup does a good job of keeping the salt from scaping the bore as it's on it's merry way? I'm none too particular about "patterning" but I do think it would be hillarious if "Ice Cream" salt did a better job than "Sea Salt" or "Kosher salt"! I also wonder if there was any such thing as a capsacin (SP) coated rubber shot charge. Seems like rubbin a little cayenne in with a dose of Goodyear would really instill a basic lesson about what "Bang" means!

 

[jojosdad]

Calamity - a good wrist rocket http://1stlinesecurity.com/wristrocket.html , and some marbles works wonders at aversion therapy for unwanted critters that you can't give permanent therapy to.

Flashman - no worries about your neighbor if you remember the 3 S's.

 

[carlrodd]

so, here's a somewhat related question....at what angle is it unsafe to fire into the ground? translation....if i am firing down at mr. groundhog who is eating my lettuce, is there an angular breaking point where a miss is far more likely to deflect in lieu of reliably burying itself in the dirt?

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Groundhogs gotta eat too!

carlrodd,

If you fire at the ground beyond but a few yards you risk ricochet with most game and defense rounds.
As to groundhog control, I'd recommend a very fast expanding/fragmenting smallcritter/varmint (soft, easy to fragment) bullet so you can simply and humanely blow him to bits-o-hog, and lessen the risk of ricochet. A miss would likely just frag itself on the ground.

ok, the very fast expanding/fragmenting smallcritter/varmint (soft, easy to fragment) bullet is something of a mouthful .. mayhap someone will come along and suggest one by make and model

I think I need some sleep

Oh, and make sure of the velocity ranges as correlated with your barrel length. Too slow and might not frag.


Any chance you could capture him and stick him in a groundhog circus?
Cute lil furry guys.

 

[cbmyers2007]

Someone on a different board posted these pics on new years day.

 

[mr.trooper]

Simple solution...Use a shotgun with birdshot.

Had soem idiot friends that use do that out int he country. They would get dads semi-auto 12 gague, load it up with #7.5 shot, and set the butt on the ground, muzzle in the air.

Fire off 4 rounds into the air and run for cover., pop pop pop pop. sounded like it was raining when all those tiny pellets started hittng the pavement

O buy the way kids, dont try this at home...even though we did.

 

[cracked junior]

the last few nights. i have also had coyotes coming in really close to the house. i live on a farm. i can usualy hear them howling in the fields and pastures, when i am in my house. then sunday night my 2 dogs started barking like there was something close. then i heard a coyote howling and it sounded like it was just outside of the house. so i got spot light and a pistol. stepped on to front porch. spot light on. seen it snooping around my truck. about 100ft away. got a clear shot with out hitting my truck. i wounded it but it got away. i know i hit it but couldnt get another shot at it since it got behind my truck then behind a building. then i lost my shoe in the mud after chasing after it. so i gave up on chasing it.

 

[gm]

Which is why I only use the vmax ballistic tip loads in my varmiter.They pretty much frag out when they hit something solid.


Dont shoot down at mr groundhog at close range, you'll get hit with debris from mr groundhog and whatever he is sitting on.

 

[RCouch]

Ref. the rock salt comments by NCONGRUT. It not only slowly disolves if it gets under the skin, but it is antiseptic and doesn't support bacterial growth. About shooting at cayotes. If you have pets or small children then you will shoot them when you can. They became a real problem when I was living in a rural area near San Marcos Tx. and we were getting rid of them any way we could.

 

[Patriot-Brewer]

You know, I actually did shoot an arrow straight up once with my brother when we were kids. We lost sight of it and ran and jumped down under some large boulders for about 5 mins...never heard it land...but we did find it after some searching, sticking straight into the ground. We felt so stupid afterwards.

 

[NcongruNt]

I'm not aware of any commercially-loaded rock salt shells. Every instance I know of has been hand loads, and this was a non-lethal defense load before the existence of more modern non-lethal solutions. Wikipedia's article on shotguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun seems to support this. Your best bet would probably be to find someone who does reloading in your area and have them put together a bunch of shells for you. It probably would be cheaper than normal shells, as rock salt is dirt cheap, even in comparison to shot.

 

[Hillsideblue]

If you can manage to shoot the weapon completely straight in the air and it stops and reverses direction, straight down, it will reach terminal velocity and won't be deadly even if it hit you in the head...............If it is fired at a slight angle upward, then it still travels at very high speed and never really slows down much compared to the other "Straight Up" shot...........Then it would still have enough energy to really hurt someone.......

When I was a cop I had a woman killed in a public park with a gunshot wound in the top of her head............The slug went deep into her skull and killed her...........After a short investigation, I was able to find a guy at a backyard party about a half mile from the park that was shooting his .38 up in the air while drinking with his buddies.......

He was charged with Murder when the slug from his weapon was matched to the one in the woman's corpse...........In New York a murder charge can be brought if a person acts "Under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, recklessly engages in conduct that creates a grave risk to human life and thereby causes the death of another person"..........

Shoot at the range.........Not into the dirt or a half-assed back-stop you have made in your back yard.................

If you're having a few beers with the guys, lock the gun in your safe........

John

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

I missed Cosmoline's post

How can it maintain its spin after falling back? I think you are seriously overestimating the power of that spin.

Think about the tremendous energy lost in a rifled barrel due to friction and of the rifling imparting the spin to the bullet, yet more friction, creates heat. I'm sure you have heard stories of barrels glowing red and folks being burned by the barrel, etc.

1 turn in 16" the bullet rotates about its axis one full (360 degree) turn in the distance of sixteen inches. This being a turn rate for a rather aerodynamically inefficient projectile such as handguns and short-bodied bullets. Hold out your hands in front of you and picture a bullet doing one full turn in that distance at say 1000 feet per second. Impressive, no?

Longer bodied and heavier rifle bullets often use more twist, 1 in 12" or 1 turn every foot is an easy one. Going off the army test, the 150gr. spitzer at 2,700 feet per second, gives a rotational velocity (spin) of 2,700 rps (revolutions per second) or 2700x60= 162,000rpm. That's impressive.

Spinning a toy top or gyroscope by hand at a much lesser rotational velocity will give you an indication of just how stable a bullet can be.

They fired .30 caliber, 150 gr., Spitzer point bullets, at a velocity of 2,700 f.p.s. Using the bullet ballistic coefficient and elapsed time from firing until the bullet struck the water, they calculated that the bullet traveled 9,000 feet in 18 seconds and fell to earth in 31 seconds for a total time of 49 seconds.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

Some toy tops can exceed this time at much lower rotational velocities.

Forward trajectory from an angled upward shot and a general upward shot can at the very least cause property damage and injury
with the possibility of causing a fatality. The greater the population density, the greater the risk.

 

[busy_squirrel]

Busy Squirrel..it dosent work that way..once you hit Terminal Velocity, there is no more speeding up...You could drop a bullet from the moon an it wouldn't matter...Simple basic Physics.

CDignition- Please reread my post. Notice I mention falling in a relative vacuum as the way to exceed terminal velocity in an atmosphere. Also notice the rest of my post, especially the bold part, because I am aware that terminal velocity in freefall is less than lateral muzzle velocity.

Usually, it'll come down slower than it went up (if it falls the same height it took to slow down and stop, etc.)

Of course aerodynamics affect it's max speed (terminal velocity), but if it freefell from high enough (think outer atmosphere, like Re-entry Vehicles) it COULD travel at supersonic speeds again.