I shot my leg

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

What's funny is that in ALL my years of shooting and reading/writing on gun message boards, I don't think I've EVER read or heard of a single instance of a Sig DA/SA ND.

Not that they haven't happened. I am sure they do. But, it's a very rare event.

I know of one story off the top of my head involving a SIG that was posted here it two people ND'ed the thing at the same place with the same gun.

Likewise, I've never heard of a ND from a Sig P250.

Cause who even uses that gun anyway?

 

[Agsalaska]

I have seen two guns AD in my life. one was a gun on video do the impossible. The video evidence was enough to clear the guy holding the gun "it was not his" of any wrongdoing. It is clear as day. Am I a liar???? If you think so I could care less. You are the ignorant one.


And OP. Something probably pulled the trigger. I am glad you are ok and get well soon.

 

[1911Tuner]

1911Tuner, you may be a moderator but you're full of BS with your 'you pulled the trigger' crap. When somebody racks the slide on a 1911 and the hammer follows the slide back down causing the gun to fire---who pulled the trigger?

First...When a hammer follows a slide and the gun fires, there's something bad wrong with the gun. That's so rare that I've only seen it happen once in all my years...and it can happen with any self-loader...rifle or pistol. The 1911 doesn't have the market cornered. That's the reason for Rule 2. To wit: "Keep it pointed in a safe direction."

But we weren't talking about weapon malfunctions. I'll restate what I said so you won't lose it in the other text, or ignore it as the case may be.

"If you shoot yourself in the foot, etc. while drawing or reholstering your pistol, you pulled the trigger." This, whether your realized it or not...or whether or not you're willing to admit it.

If stating that simple, commonly known fact is a "piss poor" response...then I guess I'm guilty.

The above statement applies to any sidearm. Of course, we can probably go ahead and exclude the Japanese Nambu since it's a good bet that nobody actually carries them any more.

If you're unable to teach yourself to keep your finger clear of the trigger during the draw or reholstering...maybe golf is a better choice for your Sunday afternoon recreation.

I used to think DA auto was a solution to a non-existing problem, but now I see I was wrong. Some folks need extra protection from themselves.

I wholeheartedly agree...and I've met some of these people on the firing range. It's unsettling. Many times I've been thankful for the cinder block dividers between the pistol bays at PHA.

Let's try to apply a little logic instead of knee-jerk. If the 1911 pistol were so inherently dangerous to handle, it would have been abandoned long ago instead of dominating the IDPA/USPSA arena.

 

[45_auto]

And the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger is made up BS.

I agree, that number is total BS. I've been actively involved in pistol training and pistol matches since 1975, and I can tell you for a fact that 1911Tuner left off a few decimal places. The actual percentage of ND's caused by a finger on the trigger is 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999.

 

[1911Tuner]

45auto...

*gigglesnort*

Look out, lad! You can become something of a pariah for injecting facts into an emotional discussion.

 

[Pilot]

Interesting to see a poster refer to his Negligent Discharge as an "AD". To me there are NO AD's, only ND's. If you didn't pull the trigger, something YOU ALLOWED to be in the way did. It is your fault, not the gun's, or the holster's or your clothing's.

Totally agree with Tuner.

 

[Axel Larson]

It is kind of funny that you called the other side not that hgihroad right now, now I disagree with how he choose to argue with you but neither side is being highroad so lets just open a new thread if you want to discuss the 1911 and nds/ads. For the record if you look at my post I did say that it was a ND I was at least partially responsible if not completely, still thank you for those who did not imply that I was a complete idiot for making a mistake(even if I feel like one). to 1911 tuner I get your point but you also do not come across that well. who moderates the moderators tone and if they are being highroad. especially thanks to Rail Driver and others who gave helpful information instead of going off on side arguments. I am guessing this thread is going to be locked down soon but thanks again to those who gave helpful information.
Also the round was a FMJ.

 

[Nushif]

To me there are NO AD's, only ND's.

I'm sure they exist. I mean there is guns that are unsafe by virtue of being broke, rusted, you name it.
ADs exist. But I would say the vast majority of "discharges less than intended" are probably NDs.

 

[1911Tuner]

1911 tuner I get your point but you also do not come across that well.

Hmm. I asked you to perform a few function checks to see if you had a malfunction in the system...then I tried to address several misconceptions about how the gun functions and respond to the claims that the design is so dangerous that we shouldn't even load one and carry it.

I cited one of the rules about keeping our finger off the trigger unless and until the shooter is prepared for, and is fully expectant for the gun to fire. A rule so oft-repeated, and it has become a mantra. A well-understood rule.

I kept it High Road until the flak started bursting around my fuselage, and responded in kind as gently as I could, and finally...fairly in desperation...suggested that proper training and discipline would negate the dangers of shooting our toes off while handling guns. Again...a mantra heard everywhere, and very likely repeated by the very people who are insisting that the 1911 is prone to suddenly and spontaneously bust one even with the trigger left untouched...

And I didn't come across very well.

I give up.

The 1911 is so inherently dangerous that we shouldn't even load one and carry it.

Theah! Now we can all be friends again.

 

[Axel Larson]

For the record I have nothing against the 1911, I may even carry one again at some point and yes thank you for the malfunction check I will perform them when I bring myself to hold the gun again. Yet sometimes it is best to let people have their opinions. It is more the fact that you implied that anyone who disagreed with you was an idiot that was less than highroad. Now I agree that most guns can be safe if you treat them right and obey the 4 rules, I have a tokarev without any safety other than the trigger and half cock. it is a fun little 9mm and have carried it before and never had a ND or AD with it and it is only a single action.
If some people choose to carry a double/single action with a decocker that is their right and choice as of now I do not blame the gun, but myself.

 

[Rail Driver]

Now I agree that guns in good repair are safe if you obey the 4 rules

Fixed that for you.

A person only shoots themselves in one of three situations -

1. The gun malfunctions (accidental discharge)
2. The user does NOT follow the 4 rules (negligent discharge)
3. The user shoots his/her self purposefully (no comment needed)

There are exceptions to everything, but this is about as cut and dried as it gets.

1911Tuner was not implying that anyone that disagreed with him was an idiot, but to be completely honest with you - What he said is 100% true and spot on - anyone that disagrees with what he said IS lacking in either common sense or intelligence. Ignorance is no excuse for anything but learning.

 

[Slamfire]

I am glad to hear that you were not hurt worse.

There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

M1911’s were designed to be carried round in the chamber, hammer down in the flap holster. Original WW1 era pistols had wide hammer spurs to assist thumb cocking and the grip safety did not interfere with access to the hammer. Enough accidental discharges occurred lowering the hammer that the SOP became cocked and locked, in the flap holster. Jeff Cooper and the combat types started carrying the things cocked and locked in waist bands, open top holsters, and they even disable the grip safety. Beavertail grip safeties make it just about impossible to safely decock the thing by lowering the hammer.



Ever since I had the safety wipe off on a M1911 I have been leery of the things as carry firearms.

I feel much more confident carrying this M642. This configuration is very fool proof.

And yes, I consider myself in the fool, or future fool category. It is not if you have an ND, it is a matter of when. I have bumped off the 1.5 pound trigger on my centerfire bolt target rifle. I was at 600 yards prone, I closed the bolt with my right hand and my third finger was sticking out. It got jammed between the back of the trigger and trigger guard. Pulling the finger out caused a ND. That cost me 10 points darn it.

I also have had ND's with my Anschutz small bore rifle. These things have five ounce triggers and you have to really concentrate on what you are doing as you take up the first stage. You also have to teach yourself not to rest the finger on the trigger waiting for wind gusts to die down. Thankfully all of these have been at rifle matches while I was on the firing line and all rounds went downrange. With a pistol, I want to make it as difficult for myself to have the first pistol ND.



If I were to carry an autopistol I want something like this SIG, no external safeties, a decocker. First shot either a long, heavy double action pull, or you thumb cock it.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Enough accidental discharges occurred lowering the hammer that the SOP became cocked and locked, in the flap holster

I don't think military SOP was ever cocked and locked in a flap holster. I believe it was hammer down on empty chamber. Now, whether SOP was obeyed is a different story.

But, I could be wrong.

 

[denton]

the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger...

76.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[loneviking]

I'm not saying that 1911s aren't a good gun,but I am saying that they are not a gun for new shooters nor for someone that doesn't reguarly train with them.

Slamfires post is one I would highly recommend any first time gun buyer or someone new to CCW to consider.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.
..

I've never been a fan of the huge and most times ambidextrous thumb safeties on the Browning type SA's. I'm not saying this was or is any sort of culprit but just a personal preference.

 

[Slamfire]

I don't think military SOP was ever cocked and locked in a flap holster. I believe it was hammer down on empty chamber. Now, whether SOP was obeyed is a different story.

But, I could be wrong.

By the time you get to Vietnam the Army was not allowing a magazine in the M1911 till you were in the combat area and sure as heck was not allowing a round in the chamber till you were on the ground in your drop off zone.

The SOP changed and changed.

A Vietnam Company Commander told me of an junior Officer who shot another junior Officer with a M1911. They were playing quick draw. That was the only 1911 ND he had heard of from the 70's.

I've never been a fan of the huge and most times ambidextrous thumb safeties on the Browning type SA's. I'm not saying this was or is any sort of culprit but just a personal preference.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

 

[loose noose]

As a Police Officer in Southern California, when we went to .45s, I carried mine locked and cocked and never had a problem. In fact I still carry it the same way today. I remember one day at the range as we were all requalifying,one of the officers .45s went full auto all down range. that was neither a ND or an AD it was a firearms malfunction. Note we qualified once a month at that time. The problem with the Officers gun was the sear broke: however the gun didn't go off on it's own the Officer initially pulled the trigger in a safe direction. I agree with 1911 Tuner, 99% of all NDs are caused by the shooter, note that at least 150-200 Officers shot at least once a month and to my knowledge no ADs or NDs ever occurred during my time on the force which was over 20 years.

 

[SSN Vet]

Sorry to hear about your mishap Axel... and hope you heal up quickly with no complications or permanent loss.

FWIW, here's my take on NDs. And no, I'm not an expert. I have, however, never had an ND in some 35 years of gun handling (the first 5 of which were very irresponsible). So perhaps that counts for something....

So here's Matt's Maxims on NDs....

1. You must always RESPECT firearms.
2. Never "play with guns" (which is the #1 cause of NDs and injuries imho)
3. Murphey's army is out to get you 24/7, and you must always be thinking about "what could go wrong in this situation"
4. The 4 rules have to be deeply ingrained into your psyche.
5. Have zero tolerance for fools with guns.
6. Don't assume that a complete stranger is not a fool and don't assume a complete strangers firearm is functioning correctly.'
7. Excessive gun handling, fondling, showing off, etc... increases the opportunities for an accident.
8. There are lot's of opportunities for things to go wrong when putting a gun in a holster or taking it out of a holster.... or when loading or unloading.... extra caution and strict trigger finger discipline and muzzle control are needed when doing these operations.
9. Unless you have mechanical aptitude and are willing to study and learn, and you thoroughly know the platform in your hands, don't play gunsmith. If you do play gunsmith, be careful who you accept advice from, and be willing to stop and seek experienced help if things aren't goin the way you anticipated.

These principles have kept me out of trouble, and kept me from hurting myself and anyone else with a firearm.

I regret some of the really stupid and irresponsible things I did with BB guns and my dad's shotgun when I was a kid. Fortunately, I lived long enough to mend my ways.

 

[7thCavScout]

Axel, I think it takes a lot of courage to come on here and fess up about what happened. I would just like to say thank you for the reminder of what can happen. I hope you heal up soon my friend.
-Chuck

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

If you're talking about Tex Grebner, he pulled the trigger and you can see it.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

That's why you put your thumb on top of the safety when shooting to keep it down.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ever since I had the safety wipe off on a M1911 I have been leery of the things as carry firearms.

At the risk of drawing more fire, I'll address this one, too.

That can be unnerving, but the grip safety still works to block the trigger and the gun requires that the gun be held in a firing grip in order to deactivate it...and because the half-cock notch is still in play, the sear would literally have to spontaneously crumble into bits before the gun would discharge in a holster.

The thumb safety was added for reholstering in a mad rush...not for carrying. (Flame suit on)

The 1910 prototypes that Browning first submitted didn't even have a manual safety. He relied on the grip safety and the half-cock. The US Cavalry requested the manual safety so that a mounted trooper who found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, bucking horse could place the gun on-safe...reholster...and free up both hands for the task. Even in those unenlightened days, they realized that a man under stress might forget to...wait for it...here it comes...might forget to remove his finger from the trigger guard before jamming the piece into a holster.

And, here's a picture of it. One of two of the original eight left in existence.

1910 Colt courtesy of Charles W. Clawson.

 

[CZguy]

Quote:
the claim that 99.9999 occur because of a trigger on the finger...

76.4% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Now that's just not true. I make up most of my statics well in advance.

 

[1911Tuner]

There is a UTube video of a gentleman practicing with a M1911 and you clearly see the unfortunate shoot himself in the leg. I think the pistol was in the holster.

Tex was using one of those retention holsters that releases with the trigger finger in the trigger guard. Can't remember the name offhand. As he drew, the gun didn't completely release due to a holster malfunction. His hand was pulling the pistol upward...it came to an abrupt halt...and his finger entered the trigger guard as the gun cleared leather.

Watch the video again. He explains what happened.

Those big safeties are easy to bump off. They are also easy to bump on when you want to shoot.

There's another one that I've never seen except on a badly-fitted safety...and only once. Oddly enough, it was a Les Baer Stinger that belonged to the wife of a retired Secret Service agent, now raising horses in Pilot Mountain, NC. They sent it back to Les, and it came back...not fixed. They brought it to me and the cure took all of 15 minutes.

 

[sansone]

for the op: I'm sorry about your accident and hope you heal well and fast sir.
It make little difference (AD or ND) except that the reason be known to you.

for mister Tuner: I avoid being a kiss*** but after reading your posts 3 times,
there is only "high road" responses in them. Anonymity causes less than polite responses where no repercussion exists