I still don't understand why necked cases need lubrication.

[stevekl]

I have been reloading for a couple of months now and I must be a newbie because there's certain things I still don't understand.

It's a given that most pistol dies are carbide and therefore the cases do not need to be lubed. It's also given that rifle dies (or any necked cartridge) are not carbide and thus the cases need to be lubed.

But nobody has explained to me why this is. Why can't they make carbide dies for necked cartridges?

I feel like this is common sense knowledge that everyone around me understands without explanation. Maybe they talked about it in middle school and I was absent that day.

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

carbide is not inexpensive in rifle sizes and is harder to shape into bottleneck shapes.

 

[50 Shooter]

The problem is the taper of the case not just the neck. You can get away with just neck sizing if used in the same rifle for a couple reloads but you'll have to FL resize eventually.

You need lube to keep the case from seizing in the die, even if the dies are carbide. There's just less tension on straight walled cases then there is on tapered cases and you need something there so that the case will release from the die.

Here's the flip side to lube, if you use to much you can actually ruin the brass as it will size to much. This could lead to shoulders pushed back to far or the case being smaller then it should be for the chamber. While it will chamber and shoot it could fail due to the pressure of it being blown out to the chamber size.

 

[Uncle Don]

You won't find bottleneck carbide rifle dies for a couple of reasons. The first is that it's cost prohibitive and second is because it really wouldn't do any good. Most bottleneck cases are tapered and the carbide ring would have to thick enough to incorporate nearly the whole taper of the case in order to size the bottom properly. Therefore, the increased area meeting the mass of the case would still require substantial force. This is why many people find that 9mm is one of the harder cases to size in a carbide die - it has a taper and the carbide ring is slightly thicker to incorporate it. The same goes for 30M1 cases.

The reason you have to lube inside of the neck is that the expander ball pulls the case upward when you are pulling the case from the die. While the case wouldn't get stuck in the die like it would if you failed to lube the outside, not lubing the inside of the case neck would greatly reduce case life and increase trimming. With no lube, and increased pulling force, it can also defeat the purpose of pushing the shoulder back during the sizing operation.

I find that the easiest way to lube necks is to not do it seperately from the case lubing. In other words, since my fingers have lube residue on it from applying it to the outside, I simply slide my finger over the edge of the case neck on one edge - and not worry about doing it all the way around. The reason is that the next case you, the lube residue you leave on one side of the case neck will go up on a different part of the expander. It's never let me down and I've done it for many years.

 

[cheygriz]

Carbide pistol dies have a "ring" of carbide just inside of the neck. As Uncle Don said, the stuff aint cheap and it's harer than hell to work with.

It obviates the need for lubrication in straight wall cases because it's incredibly slick and hard.

 

[snuffy]

taper lock

The action of a tapered shaft or other object locking when pushed under force into a matching tapered hole, has been used to hold hubs and shafts together for years.

The same goes for a tapered rifle case when shoved under enormous pressure into a matching die. You don't feel it, but the last 1/4 inch of ram movement your reloading press makes generates a LOT of force! Maybe some injun-ear on here can tell us how much, but it's plenty to lock the brass case into the die IF you don't use lube.

Do a search for "stuck-case on this or another forum. In EVERY case, it's a lack of lube that results in the caseing being stuck in the die, with the rim ripped off.

 

[cheygriz]

Good point, Snuffy!

Lee makes a carbide resizer for the tapered .30 carbine cartridge, but ya still gotta lube "em!

(I never did figure out why they make a carbide .30 carbine die in the first place since ya gotta lube anyway! )

 

[Jim Watson]

There are carbide dies for a few common bottleneck rifle cartridges, but they still have to be lubed. Carbide for durability loading a lot of rounds, not for smooth sliding without lube.

 

[ranger335v]

To the best of my knowledge, only Dillon makes carbide bottle-neck dies for reloaders and those are/were limited to .223 and .308. Haven't seen a Dillion booklet for quite some time now but, IIRC, the prices hovered around $200 per set. And, yeah, they also have to be used with lube.

 

[agd1953]

Don't skip the lube. I put my first .223 Rem into a die today and just lubed the outside of the case. I spent the rest of the day getting the @#%&$ case out of the die. I got an extractor kit and pulled the case but it left the expanding ball in the case. I had to cut the case to get the thing out. I got some Imperial Wax and used it the the rest of the day and had no other problems. This time I was being particularly careful to get some of the lube in the case necks

 

[mscott]

Using a little lube on pistol cases also makes things go a lot smoother as well. One Shot is about as good as it gets.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Short answer - more area, more springback = taper lock

Short answer - more area, more springback = taper lock. Straight cartridge is much closer to a line contact and the brass is usually a good deal thinner and weaker and so easier to push in and to pull out of the die.

It's also given that rifle dies (or any necked cartridge) are not carbide and thus the cases need to be lubed.

Not strictly true FREX a .357 Sig can be sized in 2 steps - body with a .40 S&W and neck with a 9mm/.38 Auto to suit - use all carbide and no real need to lube - though again even with carbide on a progressive that is doing multiple operations it pays to lube.

 

[stevekl]

Ah, it's all clear now. I thought carbide dies were made of carbide, like the whole die was carbide. I didn't know only a small part inside was carbide.

I have a question that vaguely relates to this...what's the easiest way to lube the inside of a neck? I've just been using imperial sizing wax and a q-tip. Are there better methods?

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Carbide expander balls with a line contact

Carbide expander balls with a line contact. Brush screwed threaded base down and sticking up from the bench. Lube the expander not the case.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

CH4D offers optional titanium nitride coating on any of their sizing dies and/or expanders. But they still need lubrication, for the same reasons as above, though you could probably get away without it on bottleneck pistol cartridges. Since carbide and TiN take a finer polish than steel, they reduce the friction, but do not eliminate it enough to avoid lubrication.

Andy

 

[50 Shooter]

If your hand is already covered with lube wipe it on the expander ball or scrape the case neck across one of your fingers to get some lube inside.

 

[Uncle Don]

Regarding your question, you probably just missed this part of my earler post.

I find that the easiest way to lube necks is to not do it seperately from the case lubing. In other words, since my fingers have lube residue on it from applying it to the outside, I simply slide my finger over the edge of the case neck on one edge - and not worry about doing it all the way around. The reason is that the next case you, the lube residue you leave on one side of the case neck will go up on a different part of the expander. It's never let me down and I've done it for many years.

 

[highlander 5]

you can get carbide expanders for RCBS dies from Honandy.
Redding-Saeco makes carbide expanders for their dies only.
I use their 223 dies with carbide expander a in my 650 and have not had to lube a neck yet

 

[jmorris]

I’ve loaded 1000’s of rifle rounds without a drop of lube, just neck size them. If you are not loading for a bolt action or using ammo in different rifles you need to full length resize. The Dillon carbide dies for .223 and 308 work great but do require lube and cost almost $100 for just the size die.

 

[cheygriz]

I use carbide expanders and I've never had any need to lubricate the inside of case necks.

 

[Lucky]

So for pistols you don't clean the brass first, but for rifles you do?