I used to know this: ar15 pistol legality

[Texas10mm]

I was thinking out loud of what I'd do.

Back in my offroad motorcycle days I'd use clear box tape to attach a copy of the title to the underside of motorcycle seats for proof of ownership. On one particular outing, a police cruiser followed me down a creek side trail and the officer said he stopped me because of reports of stolen motorcycles nearby. I unbolted the seat and showed him a copy of the title, which satisfied him enough he let me be. Yep, I had my drivers license on me, too.

So, I was thinking a little piece of paper for a firearm that someone in authority may question may work in a similar fashion.

So what piece of paper are you planning on carrying?

There's no title, there's no registration...at least in most states. A receiver when purchased isn't classified as a pistol or rifle, but as "Other firearm".

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[chicharrones]

So what piece of paper are you planning on carrying?

There's no title, there's no registration...at least in most states. A receiver when purchased isn't classified as a pistol or rifle, but as "Other firearm".

Inquiring minds want to know.

It would appear that the receiver in the OP quoted below, and definitely the receiver in my post, were both sold as complete pistols. Perhaps a copy of the bill of sale would show that? https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/pa-15-rifles/complete-ar-15-pistols.html

if I have an ar15 pistol lower and I put a 16“ or longer upper on it, it’s still a pistol right? Or do I have to keep it under 16”?

 

[Varminterror]

@chicharrones - so you’re promoting, as a parallel to a report of stolen motorcycles and providing proof of ownership, that an officer might approach a shooter and accuse that they were shooting a legally configured pistol but which they believed was not originally configured as such and therefore holding an unregistered NFA Weapon Made From a Rifle? And then the accuser, bound to produce the burden of proof, would have further reason to disbelieve the statements by the owner/shooter - which satisfy the rule of law - and further press the issue? Because such has never happened in the history of the NFA.

Not an apt analogy here. Maybe someone might report a stolen AR and you’d then have the burden of proving it were yours and not stolen - as in the case of your incident with the motorcycle - but no officer has pulled 4473’s or BOS’s to prove a legally configured pistol was originally a pistol.

I’d contend an overwhelming majority of AR pistols are bought as stripped lowers or lowers without an upper (which can have the stock removed and then assembled as a pistol), with absolutely no record of how they were first assembled.

 

[someguy2800]

I don't know if any states use a different form than mine, but here in minnesota when you buy a lower, assembled or bare, they do not check either the rifle or handgun boxes, because a receiver without a barrel is neither a handgun or a rifle. I believe the form just says other or some such. So as long as you didn't buy it as a complete rifle, there is no issue to switch back and forth.

The whole issue is a convoluted mess. Thompson Center went to the supreme court and won because the issue was brought up with their firearm being able to be converted from pistol to rifle. They won the argument but that does not necessarily apply to other firearms.

To make it even more stupid, it is even illegal to posses parts that can be put together as a pistol without possessing a pistol lower. Say for example if you have a pistol length upper in your gun safe, but only own lowers with rifle stocks and do not own any AR lowers configured as a pistol or braced pistol, they can charge you with being in "constructive possession" of an unregistered SBR. Even if you have never actually put your pistol upper on a rifle lower. If you think this is as stupid as I do, send a letter to your congressmen.

 

[12Bravo20]

I don't know if any states use a different form than mine, but here in minnesota when you buy a lower, assembled or bare, they do not check either the rifle or handgun boxes, because a receiver without a barrel is neither a handgun or a rifle. I believe the form just says other or some such. So as long as you didn't buy it as a complete rifle, there is no issue to switch back and forth.

That's federal law. Some states might be more restrictive.

And as far as the Thompson Center case, that has pretty much became case law covering all types of firearms. As long as it is FIRST built as a pistol, then it can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol.

I’d contend an overwhelming majority of AR pistols are bought as stripped lowers or lowers without an upper (which can have the stock removed and then assembled as a pistol), with absolutely no record of how they were first assembled.

Absolutely correct in that a complete lower that has NEVER had an upper attached can be built into a pistol even if it was bought with a shoulder stock on it. You DO have to remove the stock before attaching an upper with barrel less than 16".

In fact most people that build their own ARs will build them as a pistol first just so that they CAN change them to a rifle and then back to a pistol if they want to. Or they will build them as a pistol first then submit the paperwork and tax to make a SBR. That way they can still use them while waiting on their tax stamp.

 

[taliv]

Again I want a rifle. But my states handgun carry permit only applies to handguns. We can have loaded rifles in our cars without a permit so it’s not the end of the world. But the states laws are also intent based which means “carrying with the intent to go armed” is still a problem if your behavior gets interesting

 

[12Bravo20]

Again I want a rifle. But my states handgun carry permit only applies to handguns. We can have loaded rifles in our cars without a permit so it’s not the end of the world. But the states laws are also intent based which means “carrying with the intent to go armed” is still a problem if your behavior gets interesting

State laws vary quite a bit when it comes to pistols and OAL. I know that some states do in fact have laws that a pistol must be under a certain OAL. And to your original post: by federal law you can have any length barrel on a pistol. Check your state laws to see if they are the same or more restrictive. Also to answer your original post: Yes you can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol as long as it was built as a pistol first. If it was built as a rifle first, then it must remain a rifle. Again, check your state laws. You are good as far as federal laws are concerned.

 

[Varminterror]

I know that some states do in fact have laws that a pistol must be under a certain OAL.

Which states and what length?

 

[chicharrones]

@chicharrones - so you’re promoting, as a parallel to a report of stolen motorcycles and providing proof of ownership, that an officer might approach a shooter and accuse that they were shooting a legally configured pistol but which they believed was not originally configured as such and therefore holding an unregistered NFA Weapon Made From a Rifle? And then the accuser, bound to produce the burden of proof, would have further reason to disbelieve the statements by the owner/shooter - which satisfy the rule of law - and further press the issue? Because such has never happened in the history of the NFA.

Not an apt analogy here. Maybe someone might report a stolen AR and you’d then have the burden of proving it were yours and not stolen - as in the case of your incident with the motorcycle - but no officer has pulled 4473’s or BOS’s to prove a legally configured pistol was originally a pistol.

I’d contend an overwhelming majority of AR pistols are bought as stripped lowers or lowers without an upper (which can have the stock removed and then assembled as a pistol), with absolutely no record of how they were first assembled.

I can say that my premise is based mostly on my prior experience (in anything) that if I can resolve an issue with a police officer before a fine, impoundment, or arrest happens . . . then I've saved myself a whole lot of money (and time) by staying out of a courtroom (or jail).

It's good to know that I shouldn't worry about this issue as it pertains to ARs.

 

[12Bravo20]

Which states and what length?

Michigan and Minnesota are two states where a pistol must be under 26" OAL. There might be others. I didn't do a google search for all states with similar laws.

 

[stolivar]

I’m getting old.... Someone refresh my feeble memory please



if I have an ar15 pistol lower and I put a 16“ or longer upper on it, it’s still a pistol right? Or do I have to keep it under 16”?

it can be converted to a rifle but can’t go back to pistol again right?

Intention is to have a long barrel pistol to comply with state “handgun carry permit”

Length has nothing to do with it


Steve

 

[Varminterror]

In MN, it’s a “Firearm” if longer than 26”, even if it has a barrel less than 16”. Same as it is anywhere else - hence the ability to stick a VFG out front. MN isn’t precluding the legality of a 12” barreled AR without a stock in these statutes (as an example of a pistol with an OAL greater than 26”), but rather requiring their permit to purchase for anything which doesn’t satisfy the “concealable” length limit of 26”. So a 9” AR pistol is a pistol and falls under the permit to purchase requirements as other pistols. A 12” AR does not. Most FFL’s I’ve known there still DO follow the pistol guides for any non-buttstocked AR, but they wouldn’t have to.

 

[12Bravo20]

I'm sure that we have answered the Op's questions and cleared up some misinformation/misunderstanding for others.

I usually don't even try to keep up with all the different state laws since I don't travel much. I have heard people from Michigan and Minnesota complain on other forums about AR pistols and their state laws.

Here in Missouri, the Department of Conservation just changed the laws concerning deer hunting with a pistol. To hunt deer with a pistol during the "alternative" season, it must be under 26" OAL. I would have to take the Kak Sig Super SB15 buffer tube off of my 10.5" pistol to get it under 26". It is now at 26 3/4" OAL with the Kak buffer tube. In Missouri this change only effects hunting with a pistol during the alternative season.

 

[horsey300]

I will help clarify the federal law for you concerning the magic 26" OAL.

A pistol can be any length and remain concealable. Now if you take a pistol with OAL greater than 26" you can legally put a vertical fore grip on it. The addition of the VFG changes the weapon classification according to the ATF. With the VFG and 26"+ OAL it goes from being a pistol to being classified as a "firearm" or commonly called an "other". In this configuration it can not be concealed due to the 26"+ OAL, if concealed it becomes an AOW. Another example is the Mossberg Shockwave and Remington Tac firearms. They are legal as long as they stay over 26" OAL. As soon as you conceal a Shockwave, you have created an AOW. Open carry if fine with anything classified as a "firearm".

Also if you put a VFG on a pistol that is shorter that 26" OAL it also becomes an AOW. Angled fore grips are legal on pistols shorter than 26" OAL.

As others have stated. If the firearms is originally built as a pistol then it can go from pistol to rifle and back to pistol. You must install a 16"+ barrel before installing a stock and then you must remove the stock first before putting a shorter barrel back on when changing it back to a pistol. Now if the gun was originally built first as a rifle then it must stay a rifle (minus SBR tax stamp).

Hopefully I cleared up things a little bit for you. Either that you you are even more confused than before which happens anytime one tries to make sense of federal gun laws, specially NFA laws.

So if I ignore the part about foregrip for now, and throw a 22" upper on a pistol lower it is still a legal pistol yes? Vfg changes things I understand, but if I use an afg, is it still a legal pistol over 26"?

 

[12Bravo20]

So if I ignore the part about foregrip for now, and throw a 22" upper on a pistol lower it is still a legal pistol yes? Vfg changes things I understand, but if I use an afg, is it still a legal pistol over 26"?

Yes it is still a pistol according to federal law, even with an angled fore grip as long as it done NOT have a stock. As soon as you put a VFG on it, it becomes a "firearm". As all ready mentioned, check your state laws.

 

[SC45-70]

Michigan and Minnesota are two states where a pistol must be under 26" OAL. There might be others. I didn't do a google search for all states with similar laws.

Not in Minnesota!
Mn. statute 624.712 Definitions subd.2
"Pistol" includes any weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels less than 18 inches in case of a shotgun or less than 16 inches in case of a rifle.

SC45-70

 

[12Bravo20]

Not in Minnesota!
Mn. statute 624.712 Definitions subd.2
"Pistol" includes any weapon designed to be fired by the use of a single hand and with an overall length less than 26 inches, or having a barrel or barrels less than 18 inches in case of a shotgun or less than 16 inches in case of a rifle.

SC45-70

Correct me if I am wrong. If it is over 26" OAL then it is classified as a "firearm" or "other" even without a VFG, Under 26" OAL it is a pistol. I was going by exactly what you posted along with what I read on other forums by members from MN.

 

[SC45-70]

Correct me if I am wrong. If it is over 26" OAL then it is classified as a "firearm" or "other" even without a VFG, Under 26" OAL it is a pistol. I was going by exactly what you posted along with what I read on other forums by members from MN.

In Minnesota the key wording is "designed to be fired with one hand".
If it's "designed" to be fired with one hand and is under 26 inches it's a pistol.
If it is "designed" to be fired with one hand and has a smooth bore barrel less than 18 inches it's a pistol, regardless of length.
If it's "designed" to be fired by one hand and has a rifled barrel less than 16 inches it's a pistol, regardless of length.
SC45-70

 

[12Bravo20]

In Minnesota the key wording is "designed to be fired with one hand".
If it's "designed" to be fired with one hand and is under 26 inches it's a pistol.
If it is "designed" to be fired with one hand and has a smooth bore barrel less than 18 inches it's a pistol, regardless of length.
If it's "designed" to be fired by one hand and has a rifled barrel less than 16 inches it's a pistol, regardless of length.
SC45-70

Thank you for the correction. Like I stated before, I don't keep up with all the different state laws like I do with federal laws.

 

[Weflyfast]

Yes. Until you add a buttstock.


You do not


Incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol so long as it's not in an illegal configuration while doing so

Varminterror is correct- Federal law does not set a maximum barrel length or over all length for handguns

But New York State puts a weight limit on handguns......because the govonor is a crooked idiot!

 

[12Bravo20]

Yes state laws vary greatly.

Even in the free state of Missouri, we just had to fight with the Department of Conservation which is filled with tree huggers and also fight the FUDD's over them wanting to ban AR pistols for use during our alternative method deer hunting season. They did to ban AR pistols for hunting but they must measure under 26" OAL to use during alternative method season.