Idaho State Statutes vs. Fed Gun free School Zone Act

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DaveB357

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My most common conflict w\ legally carrying concealed, without a doubt, is picking up & dropping off my kids (or employee spouse) @ school...My interpretation of Idaho Statutes is that is OK as long I the gun stays in the car.

When I asked a Deputy recently she said that "no way, zero tolerance, on school property". This concerned me so I e-mailed the County Sheriff's office...they forwarded the question the the prosecuting attorney who said in a letter:"..my office cannot provide legal advice to the public...I would encourage you to seek the advice of private counsel. In addition, you may wish to consult the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act to see if this federal legislation preempts Idaho Code".

Nice...apparently I would have to be the Guinea Pig (first since 1996) in federal court (subject to $5k fine & 5 years in Fed prison), just to get an answer to a very simple question on a very common situation. ONE THOUSAND FEET WITHIN SCHOOL PROPERTY, driving near a school get pulled over to doing 30MPH in a 25MPH school speed zone, letting the officer know I have a CCW, then what?
 
I think you're getting both a hoodwinking and a run around. Read the damn law for yourself, the fed part is online, I'd bet Idaho is just as handy with IT.

The federal law has a provision for 'properly licensed individuals' and I'd bet a reasonable sum that Idaho law fits right into that niche like New Mexico (where I live) and a number of other states.

In point of fact, one of the often cited reasons for the NM law was to allow people to traverse the city with a gun in their car. If you draw the xxx yard circle around all our schools, huge parts of the city would seem to be totally off limits.

In practical terms the gun free school zone system is not enforceable, although the authorities would prefer the term 'selectively enforceable'. Aside from a traffic stop, what possible reason could LE have for stopping the average joe or jane driving their car from point A to point B? Or walking from A to B? That's right, NONE! The GFSZ law is something more to add to the list of charges heaped upon a gang banger type who raises crap at a school.
 
The revised Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996 added an exemption for concealed permit holders.

"(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;"

So if you have a permit you then have to look at State law, since you are granted an exemption under Federal law, provided your State performs background checks for license issuance. In Virginia you can have a firearm in a school zone, concealed on your person or somewhere in your vehicle, but it cannot leave your vehicle. You can drive in and pick up or drop off kids no problem. But if you have to get out of the vehicle while in the school zone the firearm has to stay behind.

You may want to Google for the actual GFSZ Act of 1996 and read it for yourself, or even keep a printed copy for reference.
 
The revised Gun Free School Zone Act of 1996 added an exemption for concealed permit holders.

"(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;"

So if you have a permit you then have to look at State law, since you are granted an exemption under Federal law, provided your State performs background checks for license issuance. In Virginia you can have a firearm in a school zone, concealed on your person or somewhere in your vehicle, but it cannot leave your vehicle. You can drive in and pick up or drop off kids no problem. But if you have to get out of the vehicle while in the school zone the firearm has to stay behind.

You may want to Google for the actual GFSZ Act of 1996 and read it for yourself, or even keep a printed copy for reference.
Thanks, would you think that it would be the same if I hold an out of state permit (Utah) in Idaho? I chose the Utah permit because it is recognized in Washington, too (Idaho isn't).
 
No. Read the exception carefully:

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a
political subdivision of the State

Your out of state license is not an exception regardless of reciprocity because you were not licensed by the state in which the school zone is located.
 
letting the officer know I have a CCW
There is no "duty to inform" in Idaho. Do not tell the cop you are carrying unless specifically asked. Nothing good can come from volunteering that information.
 
jfdavis58 said:
Read the damn law for yourself, the fed part is online, I'd bet Idaho is just as handy with IT.

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302D.htm

TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 33
FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES AND OTHER DEADLY WEAPONS
18-3302D.Possessing weapons or firearms on school property.
(1) (a) It shall be unlawful and is a misdemeanor for any person to possess a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon while on the property of a school or in those portions of any building, stadium or other structure on school grounds which, at the time of the violation, were being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school in this state or while riding school provided transportation.
(b) The provisions of this section regarding the possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon on school property shall also apply to students of schools while attending or participating in any school sponsored activity, program or event regardless of location.
---
(4) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following persons:
(a) A peace officer;
(b) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or deadly or dangerous weapon as an appropriate part of a program, an event, activity or other circumstance approved by the board of trustees or governing board;
(c) A person or persons complying with the provisions of section 19-202A, Idaho Code;
(d) Any adult over eighteen (18) years of age and not enrolled in a public or private elementary or secondary school who has lawful possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, secured and locked in his vehicle in an unobtrusive, nonthreatening manner;
(e) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon in a private vehicle while delivering minor children, students or school employees to and from school or a school activity;
 
"(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located
or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;"

4) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following persons:
(a) A peace officer;
(b) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or deadly or dangerous weapon as an appropriate part of a program, an event, activity or other circumstance approved by the board of trustees or governing board;
(c) A person or persons complying with the provisions of section 19-202A, Idaho Code;
(d) Any adult over eighteen (18) years of age and not enrolled in a public or private elementary or secondary school who has lawful possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, secured and locked in his vehicle in an unobtrusive, nonthreatening manner;
(e) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon in a private vehicle while delivering minor children, students or school employees to and from school or a school activity;


If i read the responses here correctly, I can safely transverse school zones in my own state with my permit. If I am out of state, then I need to look at the individual state laws and see if I fit into the category of "lawful possession" if that is an exemption for that particular state. I'm no lawyer but if I have reciprocity with the state, wouldn't that place me in the category of "lawful possession"? Again, using the assumption the state has that exemption, "lawful possession" The Idaho statues quoted here don't mention residency as a requirement, only "lawful possession"
 
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Furthermore, it's a Federal crime.

You'd have to be pulled over for a justifiable reason by the local or state police (see a lot of FBI or ATF doing traffic stops in your town?), then have the gun be discovered, then have them arrest on merely a Fed. charge (of which, with your permit, there doesn't appear to be one), then have your local prosecutor be willing to kick it up to the Feds for prosecution.

I suspect once the Incorporation fight is won the GFSZA will be next up to be eliminated or modified. After all, the Administration and anti-gun leadership are now on record saying that state law should apply for carry rules, that "what works in Phoenix may not work in Chicago" (Thune Amend responses). In AK and Vt and in most "open carry" states no permit is required to OC, so all those citizens are made into felons every day by the 1,000' rule.

What then is the GFSZA but an attempt, just like nat'l reciprocity, to apply one standard to all locations? Surely the anti-gun politicos can't contradict themselves... :evil:

All Congress needs to do is write an amendment that would replace the "state permit required" exception language with simply "per the laws of the state" (like the Park Carry amendment wording) and the problem would go away.

Next up should be the carry rules for Post Office grounds and all Federal offices regularly open to the public in the normal course of business (which exempts prisons, jails, military bases, everything but the outer lobbies of FBI/courts etc.) Make those like "Park Carry", just "per the laws of the state".
 
Chunkychuck said:
If i read the responses here correctly, I can safely transverse school zones in my own state with my permit. If I am out of state, then I need to look at the individual state laws and see if I fit into the category of "lawful possession" if that is an exemption for that particular state. I'm no lawyer but if I have reciprocity with the state, wouldn't that place me in the category of "lawful possession"? Again, using the assumption the state has that exemption, "lawful possession" The Idaho statues quoted here don't mention residency as a requirement, only "lawful possession"

The only time you have exemption from the Federal law is if your permit is from the same state that the school zone is located in.

Let's say you have a permit from Utah, that is valid in Idaho and you are an Idaho resident. Your Utah permit would exempt you from only state law in Idaho (and any other states that the Utah permit is valid in and has similar laws), but not the Federal law.

If you were in Utah, with your Utah permit, and state law is similar to Idaho, then you would be exempt from both the Federal and State laws in Utah.

As stated above, if you're in Idaho, on your Utah permit, and you get stopped in a school zone in possession, Idaho can do nothing to you because you are exempted from Idaho law, EXCEPT if they wanted to forward the prosecution to a Federal authority for prosecution under the Federal law, which I seriously doubt they would do on a traffic stop.

Now, the Federal law only applies if the gun in your possession has been involved in interstate commerce...
 
This situation would seem to be an argument against incorporation unless all federal restrictions on the RKBA were removed.
 
NavyLT, let me see if I get this correct.

If my home, is across the street from one of my local elementary schools, is it your contention that I can't possess a firearm? That I can't walk around my property openly or concealed? That I can't exit or enter my property carrying concealed or openly, simply because it's a Gun Free School Zone?

All are perfectly lawful activities in Idaho. No permit is required for concealed carry on my property. No permit is required for open carry. No permit is required for possession of lawful firearms (which includes Title 2 firearms).

How about concealed carry to, from, and during work, if my work is across the street from a (private elementary) school? My work, at that time, was a grocery store with no rules against lawful carry.

How about going from my work, to and into a school to discuss billing concerns with the schools purchasing officer? I had the School Boards (written) permission to carry (18-3302D(4)(f) I.C.- not quoted in the above statute) for such encounters.

Are you still saying that I, my place of work, and the School Board were all in felony violation of some federal statute?

Perhaps in less free States. But not Idaho.
 
Al,

I didn't say any of that stuff that you came up with. The only thing that I am saying is that if you are in Idaho, and you do not have an Idaho Concealed Carry Permit, then 18 USC 922 (q) applies to you. Instead of just whining on here about it, maybe you should read 18 USC 922(q) in it's entirety.

Very Respectfully,
Navy LT

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(q)
(1) The Congress finds and declares that—
(A) crime, particularly crime involving drugs and guns, is a pervasive, nationwide problem;
(B) crime at the local level is exacerbated by the interstate movement of drugs, guns, and criminal gangs;
(C) firearms and ammunition move easily in interstate commerce and have been found in increasing numbers in and around schools, as documented in numerous hearings in both the Committee on the Judiciary [3] the House of Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate;
(D) in fact, even before the sale of a firearm, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which they are made have considerably moved in interstate commerce;
(E) while criminals freely move from State to State, ordinary citizens and foreign visitors may fear to travel to or through certain parts of the country due to concern about violent crime and gun violence, and parents may decline to send their children to school for the same reason;
(F) the occurrence of violent crime in school zones has resulted in a decline in the quality of education in our country;
(G) this decline in the quality of education has an adverse impact on interstate commerce and the foreign commerce of the United States;
(H) States, localities, and school systems find it almost impossible to handle gun-related crime by themselves—even States, localities, and school systems that have made strong efforts to prevent, detect, and punish gun-related crime find their efforts unavailing due in part to the failure or inability of other States or localities to take strong measures; and
(I) the Congress has the power, under the interstate commerce clause and other provisions of the Constitution, to enact measures to ensure the integrity and safety of the Nation’s schools by enactment of this subsection.
(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
(3)
(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), it shall be unlawful for any person, knowingly or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge or attempt to discharge a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the person knows is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the discharge of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) as part of a program approved by a school in the school zone, by an individual who is participating in the program;
(iii) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in a school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual; or
(iv) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity.
(4) Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preempting or preventing a State or local government from enacting a statute establishing gun free school zones as provided in this subsection.
 
I didn't say any of that stuff that you came up with.
Nope you didn't. Hence why I wrote what I did as a question. I've read the entirety of 18 USC 922 many times. The the reason for my questions were because you appeared to focus on one specific sub-section while ignoring several others.

18 USC 922(q) is written as if all States require some permit or license for any exceptions. This is simply not true. In lieu of such a licensing or permitting system, lawful activity within the State takes precedence.

In the case of Idaho, and other States with similar laws, one need not be licensed to do what I have done. It does not violate 18 USC 922(q). Which was my entire point, since the OP was about Idaho law in specific.
 
Actually that isn't a correct interpretation.

The exception is for private property -or- public property on a permit with a background check.

You are fine on your property or at work without a permit (B,i), however...

if the weapon is loaded and unsecured (B,iii,I+II) and you are on a public street or public land within 1,000' of a school zone and you don't have said permit you are in violation of the GFSZA (B,ii).

It matters not that you are transiting from lawful private property to lawful private property, nor that the state doesn't require (or provide) such a permit.
 
I sat in on the Idaho Senate subcommittee hearings when they amended 18-3302D to allow for an exception for folks who are coming and going to school to pick up and drop off their kids. Sen. Gerry Sweet if Intermountain Arms fame was on the committee as well.

There are committee meeting minutes which will clarify and demonstrate the legislature's intent that no adult person be prosecuted, period, for having a gun in the car while going to, dropping off or picking up, or leaving a school, much less for possessing a gun within 1,000 feet of a school building.

Idaho police have yet to cite anyone for such a violation. Prosecutors have yet to prosecute for such a violation. And they likely won't.

Be realistic about the federal law - how many federal officers do we have roaming the school districts of the State of Idaho? Our federal prosecutors are all appointed from the ranks of Idaho attorneys - they aren't interested or willing to prosecute one of these cases because no jury in this state would ever convict.

Just keep a low profile and do your own thing and you'll never get in trouble in this state.
 
Now, the Federal law only applies if the gun in your possession has been involved in interstate commerce...

Guns and other things that are only an instant away from interstate commerce affect interstate commerce by their presence, and are subject to federal regulation under the commerce clause, even if they have never been involved in interstate commerce.
 
Geez, just get an Idaho permit, too, if you're worried about it.

Good for 5 years, not particularly expensive, and makes gun transactions quicker because you don't have to do a NICS check.

Lopez schmopez. It applies to Federal jurisdiction, but it doesn't change this law.
 
DaveB357, you noted: My most common conflict w\ legally carrying concealed, without a doubt, is picking up & dropping off my kids (or employee spouse) @ school...My interpretation of Idaho Statutes is that is OK as long I the gun stays in the car.

(I'm not a lawyer; these are my thoughts which have NO LEGAL warranty(ies) whatsoever...)
Yes, you may pick up and drop off your kids while having a firearm in your vehicle. Just don't leave your vehicle unless the firearm is secured (unloaded) and in a locked box or has a trigger lock.

If you haven't done so already, both you & your wife get a concealed weapons permit. Every sheriff county offers a free class; call 'em & ask. 3 hours of your time; that's all (well, plus the cost for the CWP).

Idaho law does allow a person to OPEN CARRY a firearm on school property WHEN there is no school sponsored activity or event, however a person may not conceal carry unless authorized by the school board (have fun getting that approved).
Take voting, for example, when the polling place is held on school property. I dunno, take Chief Joseph Elementary (CJE) in Meridian, ID, for example. School closes @ 5PM. Polls are open until 8pm. Go vote at, say, 7pm. Make sure you have your CWP with you. Open Carry is your call.
Or, lets say your kids wanna walk to that same school on a Saturday or during the summer when there is no school. Open Carry with your CWP. Take a digital video camcorder to record anything (e.g, interaction with a LEO or citizen(s)) to help you best remember your outing. Terror and violence don't make appointments. Whatever "reasonable means" you choose "to protect you or your family" is your call.

Again, just my thoughts.
 
KCromm, I doubt Dave is still looking for answers 2-1/2 years later.
 
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