Ideal whitetail projectile and velocity

[Newtosavage]

Another thread I started migrated into a detailed discussion about various calibers, and made me curious what folks would consider their "ideal" whitetail bullet, and at what velocity (MV).

Talking whitetails here. Not mule deer, elk, or woodchucks.

For me personally, I'll take a 150-grain .30 caliber bullet with a decent BC traveling about 2350 fps. MV.

 

[Hookeye]

I don't care as long as it makes a decent exit wound.

 

[Newtosavage]

So what would that be in your mind?

 

[MtnCreek]

I'll take a 150-grain .30 caliber bullet with a decent BC traveling about 2350 fps. MV.

30-30 Winchester?

 

[Newtosavage]

Trying to avoid naming calibers here, but instead see if people have given some thought to the ballistics involved in what makes an ideal round in their mind, and why.

 

[stiab]

I like the 165 grain .308 and 180 grain .30-06 at factory levels to ensure two holes. I don't want to shoot any more deer and have just an entrance hole.

 

[Newtosavage]

So that's say 165-grain .30 caliber bullet at 2600 fps?

 

[Nature Boy]

I'd go with that answer

 

[VoodooMountain]

100 grain bullet between 3000-3300 fps.

But there are variables such as bullet construction and where the person likes to shoot their deer.

 

[Newtosavage]

and where the person likes to shoot their deer.

Excellent point. I've come to realize that while some hunters are sure to place their bullets carefully so as not to destroy any meat, others will gladly sacrifice shoulder meat in order to drop them on the spot. I guess it's a matter of which priority you have - saving meat or not having to track.

At my last deer camp, there were 8 hunters and we definitely fell into two camps around the skinning rack. The older guys all wanted to shoot them well behind the shoulders so as to preserve as much meat as possible. The younger guys wanted to shoot them in the shoulder so they dropped where they stood. At least, in our small group that's how I recall the discussion.

 

[Corn-Picker]

Whitetail deer is a broad term. The world record Minnesota buck was over 500 pounds, the average Florida doe is less than 100 pounds. I'd say anything from 223 to 308 depending on the size of the deer.

Bigger is OK too though. My next center fire is likely a 375 Ruger. Do I need a 275 grain bullet traveling at 2800 fps+ to take a whitetail? No, and I'm guessing most people think 4800 ft-lbs is a little excessive for deer. But, I enjoy a rifle that kicks a little sometimes, it reminds me I'm alive. Kind of like eating hot wings or taking cold showers.

 

[Sunray]

"...traveling about 2350 fps..." Too slow if you're thinking .30-06 or .308. Start load velocities for the '06 run 2700ish. 2600ish for the .308.
165's start at 2400ish to 2500ish out of a .308. 100 fps or so faster with an '06. Mind you, a 165 out of either will kill any game in North America out of either cartridge.
2350ish fps is a hot to over max .30-30 load. Except for Hodgdon 'LVR' powder.
Shot placement on Bambi really isn't a choice. Behind the shoulder put a bullet into the heart/lungs. Some people think a neck shot is best.

 

[Newtosavage]

Sunray, that's what I'm loading to currently (150 grains at 2350).

I was hoping to avoid calibers for a moment and just think more about the ballistics in general.

As far as shot placement not being a choice, you couldn't tell that to the guys I was in camp with this year. Lots of choices in their minds.

Of course Corn-picker makes a good point. But in general, we're talking sub-200# critters here. When you look at the distribution of Whitetails across North America, 150-200# is going to be at the 75th percentile of weight.

 

[jmr40]

Muzzle velocity is irrelevant. Impact velocity is everything. Depending on the range at impact and bullets chosen I can load 308's that impact faster than 300 magnums even though the 300 starts as much as 500 fps faster.

There is no perfect or ideal projectile. And velocity depends on the bullets weight, construction and the range the shot is taken. You need a bullet that will penetrate deep enough to hit vitals and either expand or start out with enough diameter to cause enough damage to kill the deer. The bullets construction determines penetration, but impact speeds determine expansion.

There are countless ways to make that happen and the end result is exactly the same.

That said, you might as well go with the least recoil that will get the job done. Modern 243 bullets at around 3000 fps will kill any deer on the planet just as dead as anything else.

I don't own one because deer aren't the only thing I hunt. Going up to a 308 with any bullet weight above 150 gr that IMPACTS at 1800-2000 fps or more will take any animal in North America. The maximum range is the point where velocity drops below 1800 fps or so depending on the exact bullet.

 

[Newtosavage]

So jmr, what's your choice?

 

[justin22885]

what ive learned on 7.62x39 both 123 and 150 grains is that the wound channel, sucks, i can do better with a 75 grain .224" bullet at 2800fps muzzle velocity inside 300 and not have to second guess the shot.. im also able to get much closer than 300 yards (inside 50) so even a 9x19mm or 45acp would suffice out of a carbine

the idea you need a magnum rifle caliber on white tails is simply ludicrous

 

[Corn-Picker]

the idea you need a magnum rifle caliber on white tails is simply ludicrous

Depends where you hunt to some extent. In the mountain states your best shot might be 300 yards with a stiff crosswind. A 30-30 is capable of killing at that distance, but you have a lot more room for error judging the wind with a 7mm mag shooting a heavy for caliber bullet.

 

[fireman 9731]

what ive learned on 7.62x39 both 123 and 150 grains is that the wound channel, sucks

I have had quite the different experience. I have cleanly taken two deer with Hornady 123 grain soft points loaded to about 2,200 fps. The first was shot right in the boiler room with the deer facing me. He dropped where he stood. The bullet was recovered in the animal, perfectly mushroomed. The second was a double lung hit, typical broad-side shot. He ran about 20 yards and dropped. The bullet exited, and left an exit whole about the size of quarter.

To me, 7.62x39 performance on deer has been fantastic.

However, I also really like hunting with my 45-70. A 350 grain flat nosed bullet traveling at about 1,800 fps punches a nice clean half inch hole straight through with no meat damage.

As far as "ideal" bullet weight and velocity goes... It just depends on everyone's "ideal" situation, circumstances, and preferences.

 

[sage5907]

My favorite shot on a deer is a high shoulder shot and it knocks the deer down instantly. If I use a use a bullet that makes an exit wound I change to one that doesn't. I want the bullet to expend all of it's energy inside the animal. My favorite load is a 30 caliber cup & core boattail bullet with a muzzle velocity at about 2900 fps. That includes the 150 and 165 grain bullets. It doesn't get any better than that.

 

[justin22885]

i said the wound track wasnt that fantastic, i never said it wouldnt kill with proper placement, as ive stated a 9mm will do the job with proper placement, some people though have this idea that going with magnum rifle calibers is going to make up for their ~2 days worth of target practice just before deer season and it wont

 

[Newtosavage]

The second was a double lung hit, typical broad-side shot. He ran about 20 yards and dropped. The bullet exited, and left an exit whole about the size of quarter.

To me, 7.62x39 performance on deer has been fantastic.

Almost exactly what happened with the buck I shot two weeks ago with my 7.62x39. Broadside, lungs, quarter-sized exit hole, ran 40 yards. Blood absolutely everywhere but very little meat damaged at all. I have shot quite a few hogs by now with that rifle, but that was the first deer and I was very pleased with the results. The results on at least one 150+ lb. sow were identical too. Two holes, exit hole about half-dollar sized, down in 40 yards, blood everywhere.

My favorite shot on a deer is a high shoulder shot and it knocks the deer down instantly.

You help illustrate my point. I guess I didn't realize how segregated the whitetail rifle hunting community was when it came to shot placement. I was always aiming through the lungs trying to avoid the shoulder, knowing my years of blood trailing experience from bowhunting will allow me to find the deer. But I know a lot of folks like yourself that want to see them fall where they stand and don't mind sacrificing meat to do it.

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

.17 caliber around 3000 fps, right through the ears. Thats how you save meat!

I'm kidding. I dont find head shots ethical. You could miss and hurt the deer without killing it. I would say anything from the .223-.30 will get the job done at any "normal" velocity. Some people spend too much discussion, time, and money trying to figure out the perfect or ideal deer caliber. They will all kill deer. Some of the big magnums have a better chance of doing it faster or forgiving you for a bad shot, but anything will kill deer.

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

To answer the question,

me personally,

I use a .243 with sierra gk 100 gn or nosler partition 100 gn over a mid-range load of powder when I'm hunting for meat.

I use a 7mm RemMag with a 160 gn Nosler Partition or Accubond when "trophy" hunting. If I know I'm on a buck that could rattle my nerves if I see him, I have faith in my 7mm to fold him in his tracks on a good shot and forgive me if I pull a shot too far back.

 

[stiab]

So that's say 165-grain .30 caliber bullet at 2600 fps?

If you are asking me (and I think you were), that is correct. Like I indicated, at factory ammo standards. And it's been a long time since I saw anyone who insisted on expending all the energy inside the deer, that was debunked as being optimal years ago, unless you are shooting a marginal rifle.

 

[Newtosavage]

To answer the question,

me personally,

I use a .243 with sierra gk 100 gn or nosler partition 100 gn over a mid-range load of powder when I'm hunting for meat.

I use a 7mm RemMag with a 160 gn Nosler Partition or Accubond when "trophy" hunting. If I know I'm on a buck that could rattle my nerves if I see him, I have faith in my 7mm to fold him in his tracks on a good shot and forgive me if I pull a shot too far back.

That actually makes a heluva lot of sense. Thanks for the input.