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IDPA Points Down Restructuring

Discussion in 'Competition Shooting' started by johnmcl, Dec 28, 2015.

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  1. johnmcl

    johnmcl Member

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    Hi all,

    I read in the last IDPA publication, The Tactical Journal, that IDPA is going to change the penalty structure. Currently, a point down earns a half second added to one's total time for the stage.

    For example, if one is down 10 points for a given stage, 5 seconds are added to the total time.

    Under the new configuration one point down is one second added. This means for being 10 points down 10 seconds are added. The argument from Ms. Wilson is to emphasize accuracy over speed, reflecting real world priorities.

    I have two opinions. My first is that this change will help me personally. I tend to shoot slower, but more accurately than those around me. This approach put me into CDP Expert by a half second last Spring (which totally honked me for IDPA for ever in competition....). I think the rule will help me against these folks who are super fast, but not so accurate.

    The second perspective is I wish IDPA would simply let the game be stable for a while. There was a set of rule changes, plus a new equipment division added which necessitated a re-certification of all the Safety Officers. Now the scoring is changing, authorized by a self-admitted group of three. I'm a little concerned that such a fundamental change was debated by such a small group.

    Then again, I don't understand IDPA's leadership authority. I can't remember Ms. Wilson ever being elected....

    In summary, my main criticism is the lack of rule stability in IDPA.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Longhorn 76

    Longhorn 76 Member

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    I like rule changes. It keeps the gamers upset!
     
  3. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    It's a danged if you do, danged if you don't kind of thing. There are lots of "problems" with the various games (and certainly no less for IDPA) that "everyone" knows need to be fixed, and there has to be some adjustment to keep folks engaged.

    But, yeah, the very best intentions for a better rule book have proved to be ... a bit wobbly ... in the last three or so years.

    I am quite a bit happier now with the rules than I was after the first update rolled out a year or two ago. But yeah, I hope for some stability now as it's getting hard to keep track! (And as an M.D., I'm supposed to be on top of this stuff!!!)

    http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/03/t...s-international-defensive-pistol-association/
    In the end it is a privately owned entity.
     
  4. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    I would be moderately surprised if this rule ever actually goes into effect due to the amount of backlash I've read online from nearly everyone (except old and slow people who THINK this will help them)

    It's going to make the people at the bottom of the scoresheet end up wayyyyy at the bottom and won't really affect anything at the top.

    BUT...it will slow down the sport in general and make it less fun. That's why I don't like it.
     
  5. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Joyce was not elected, she owns IDPA now. She got it in the divorce with Bill. If she wanted to shut it down she could. The old "stability of the rules" is gone and the folks that remain in IDPA are trying to figure out how to beat faster shooters.

    They just don't understand the fact that if you slow down a better shooter they just shoot more accurately. That said, there is a migration of many over to USPSA everytime IDPA messes with their rules.
     
  6. Hoser

    Hoser Moderator Staff Member

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    Changing the point value changes nothing. If I used to drop 15 points in a match and Bubba Joe drops 10 but we both had the same overall time, he still wins.

    Accuracy still trumps speed just like in all the shooting sports from Biathlon to IPSC to PPC.
     
  7. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Seems like IDPA is moving towards PPC, but with varied courses of fire.
     
  8. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    "Joyce was not elected, she owns IDPA now. She got it in the divorce with Bill."

    I didn't know they had broken up.
    Darla got well on her half of the company when she left Bill years ago.


    I don't think any rule change has been widely approved except when they repealed the flat footed reload which I am paranoid enough to think they put in to punish us for complaining about "round dumping" FTDR penalty.
     
  9. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    I think a decided majority of the people who think it will help them are going to be wrong.

    Most shooters who are scoring well even at the state match type regional level are able to calibrate their accuracy/speed balance around the scoring model of the day. Just because they may drop a few more points than some shooters and still win with a 0.5 second penalty doesn't mean they CAN'T shoot better points if that is what is going to be needed to win with a 1 second penalty.

    In the end I think it is much ado about nothing and will change very little other than to really hammer newbies who are almost always dropping tons of points.

    And like waktaz said, if there has been a published date of when this change will go into effect, I have not seen it... I'm also in the "I'll believe it when I see it in the rulebook" camp. IDPA has, thankfully, walked back on one or two of the less popular rule changes since 2013, and I don't think this announcement was met with much positive feedback from the majority of the actual regular IDPA shooters, from what I can tell.
     
  10. Barr

    Barr Member

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    I actually like and agree with the change. In the end this is an action pistol game but teaching people to slap triggers faster and develop a class A flinch won't help. The speed will come with practice and familiarity. I see this as helping promote more deliberate practice with new shooters to the sport.

    If you did have to use your pistol in the real world, "In the gravest extreme..." you are responsible for every bullet that leaves the muzzle.
     
  11. Barr

    Barr Member

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    A top 10 competitor will still be a top 10 competitor, the raw scores will likely slow down 5-10%.
     
  12. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    That's not a bad change. The silly things are the various gun categories and how they reflect EDC. The standing reload rule - now that was stupid.

    Also, the dedicated vests people wear - gun burkas (saw that elsewhere). Ever see one in the supermarket? I think I've seen about two. One was probably me when I had to stop to get something on the way home.
     
  13. tarakian

    tarakian Member

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    This rule will not be implemented any time soon. I don't expect to see it before 2017 at the earliest. There is a lot of work to be done re-calibrating the classifiers and I'm sure the powers that be will be listening to feedback in the meantime. The rule will likely have little effect on the sport overall. The best shooters will still be the best. There will be a small group that makes up for a lack of accuracy with ridiculous speed that will need to adapt or fail, and certain shooters in transition to the upper echelon may see some extra points while they work to increase their speed. No matter, it's just a game and we play by the rules, or play something else.
     
  14. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I have seen implementation of Joyce Count Scoring rumored for Spring 2016 so you will have a chance to reclassify in time for the 2016 Nationals, and for sometime 2017 so as to allow two years after the previous edition as was originally promised for "rule stability."
     
  15. johnmcl

    johnmcl Member

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    heh, "Joyce Count".....
     
  16. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Meh.

    Fine. Change the rules. I will still play. Still have fun.

    Still try to beat the best guy in the room... :)

    When I started shooting IDPA, I was learning the rules 3 seconds at a time... :D

    "oh, I can't do that, huh. Okay."
     
  17. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    im a young and fast guy:uhoh: but for IDPA that is a good move. misses dont stop threats.... for the most part.
     
  18. waktasz

    waktasz Member

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    Who said anything about missing?

    No one "in real life" is going to shoot at a real perp as slowly as the new scoring model is going to make you. IDPA is already heavily accuracy based, did it really need more? Did it accomplish anything other than slowing down the game?
     
  19. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    um.. im not going to start an argument here but there are hundreds or thousands of people in gun fights/war that have been shot and didn't know it till it was over. so outside in the point deduction rings is a miss as far as i am concerned with a weak pistol round. in my world head and spinal cord only will be a sure stop to an attacker with a carry sized pistol round. most people need to slow down when they shoot. it causes flinching due to recoil recovery when they go fast. one well placed shot on a bad guy can get rid of 5 bad guys really quick
     
  20. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    While I value accuracy, I have seen people actually shoot better when shooting faster because they are not thinking about the recoil, they are just shooting.

    Either way, more training is needed for that shooter.
     
  21. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    I shoot in a local police (mostly) league that started out IDPA but has been using +1 scoring for some time, even before Joyce Count was even suggested. I cannot tell that it has affected the way I approach a stage. But then I am on the old, fat, and slow but moderately accurate side to start with.

    It has now gone to higher penalties for FTN and HoNT because the PD doesn't want a crook worth shooting to get away and they REALLY don't want to wing a taxpayer. I do make allowance for THAT.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2015
  22. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Its a game dude. Cardboard cutouts are not going to attack in swarms.

    Great practice.... But its still a game no matter how you slice it.
     
  23. Walt Sherrill

    Walt Sherrill Member

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    First of all, I know this was about IDPA. I have shot a good bit of IDPA up until a couple of years ago.

    I don't do USPSA (or know much about IPSC) but Bruce Gray, of Gray Guns, who was once a pretty good competitor, and who still tunes the guns of other pretty good competitors has said -- it may be on his website -- that he and others have found that being fast and accurate is important, but being fast ELSEWHERE (as you go through course of fire, moving from target to target, position to position) was where the biggest point advantage was to be found.

    When you shoot production, perhaps this isn't as big an issue in the other divisions? As I said, I'm not familiar with USPSA or IPSC.

    When I've watched some VERY GOOD shooters perform (and I can't think of a better term), they seem a bit like time and motion study experts who were also ballet-trained: no wasted motion, no inefficient behaviors. You don't hear folks talk about THAT aspect of competiion much here or by the folks who compete in USPSA or IDPA. (I haven't shot competitively in several years so I haven't had a chance to put it to the test.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  24. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator Emeritus

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    :) I've made a few comments like that, but usually aimed at breaking down how to describe the development of a shooter.

    Usually you'll go from Marksman to Sharpshooter by figuring out how to run your gun and shoot accurately, quickly. The jump from Sharpshooter to Expert seems to be when folks finally get their feet untangled and figure out how to move and work BETWEEN shots. How not to waste time wandering all over the bay, how to reload when they can't be shooting, how to shoot instead of move when they can and shoot JUST as soon as they can when they have to move. Then moving up to Master is refinement.
     
  25. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    This is correct. This is true even if your best split is .2 that still means your looking at 3.6 seconds trigger time in an 18 round stage it's all the other stuff that adds up.

    The thing I don't like about the new mindset of IDPA is that they are not trying to figure out how to make slower shooters faster, rather make the faster shooters slower. Like the flat foot reload, punishing those that could walk and chew gum. Making them do one thing at a time just like the slowest of the slow.

    In doing so they just piss off a bunch of people and in the end won't have the desired result except for the only ones left in the sandbox once they have run everyone else off to play other games.
     
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