IDPA rules that I'd like to see changed

[SIRVEYR666]

It's a simple one, but it gets me dinged quite often. When my last round is in the pipe and my mag is empty, let me drop it and leave an empty mag behind. Don't ding me with a procedural. I did not leave any ammo behind!

I know, I know, it's not one of the three IDPA approved reloads, but I still think that it should be legal.:banghead:

 

[Jim Watson]

I feel your pain, but it ain't gonna happen.
Jeff Cooper advocated the counted reload, dropping the empty magazine when the last round chambered, but Bill W. doesn't think it feasible.
If you want to do counted reloads then there is always IPSC, TSA, or IDSA.

 

[ChristopherG]

You understand the logic behind the rule, right? In a gunfight, you are not going to count to 8 or 10 or 17 or whatever the capacity of your mag is. It's just not going to happen. Your gun will run to slidelock, in the unlikely event of a gunfight that uses a full mag, which will come as a surprise to you. Hence the primacy of the emergency reload.

 

[Hoser]

Ninja. Vanish.

 

[Gary G23]

I actually prefer shooting the same way in competition that I would in real life. But to each his own I guess.

 

[yar]

It's a game. There are going to be rules. In real life there are very few rules besides, don't get killed, don't go to jail.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

You understand the logic behind the rule, right?

Yes, I understand the logic. I also understand that I won't be dumping extra rounds down range in a gunfight, just so that I can reload at slide lock, or have enough rounds to put into the bad guy (aka: drop-turner) that will attack me from out of nowhere. When was the last time you saw this rule enforced at a match?

I know that IDPA is a game. I love to play the game. I like to complain sometimes, too.

 

[HighVelocity]

The one rule that I'd like to see changed is the one that says you can only do a reload when behind cover. Being a revolver shooter, I run dry in the open ALL THE TIME. Why the hell can't I start my reload immediatly instead of running to the next position and THEN starting the reload? :banghead: It's just stupid to run 5+ yards with an empty gun when I could have already FINISHED the reload on the move.

[/rant off]

 

[Lurper]

You understand the logic behind the rule, right?

The logic is to impose a rigid box within which to confine the shooter. Many of the rules are either subjective or patently absurd. Not just in IDPA. Anytime an RO can assess a penalty for failure to do right or anytime the shooter is forced to solve the problem in a way that the administrators see fit, something is wrong. IMHO, enforcing the "concept" of reloading behind cover has several problems. So does reload w/retention, so does the overall concept of cover.
Some people just feel the need to impose rules for rule's sake regardless of logic or practicality.

 

[jmorris]

The rules are there to keep the disparity between 1st and last as small as possible (CDP/SSP); round dumping generally results, mostly from CDP, but it is very difficult to enforce, in any class, (they call it a “made up shot”). If you are engaging on the move or have a distant target, you’re in for a loosening battle. Most MD’s will call a perfect double a miss, so who are you to tell a shooter to not make up a shot that he called a miss. If you don’t like IDPA rules there is always USPSA to play. Mr. Wilson has made very few changes in his game since its inception and I don’t expect many more to come.

 

[akanotken]

The real problem comes when you try to make a game

immitate real life. For shooting sports that would be too boring, unless the BG/cardboard targets get to shoot back with .... something? Too few bullets.

I think IDPA grew out of numerous things USPSA does that went to far (in Wilson's mind). The feeling was that RW situations have shooters NOT counting rounds, and shooting to slidelock (rather than speed reloading). So, the rules are made to force the game that direction. It's still a compromise, and requires people to retain empty/mostly empty mags when Running thru a stage with 4+ reload mags, dropping a mag whenever moving likely was one of the major irks?

I guess the other way to look at it is ... Why not require a rule set that has folks shooting to slidelock? It's certainly a valuable skill (the reload is a bit different). We have a local range that is IDPA-ish (non affiliated, plays by most rules). Occasionally speed reloads are allowed, it's funny to see most shooters try to release the slide, or rack the slide, before resuming shooting

If you are trying to win, the a rule change doesn't help you as everyone would be faster. If you don't care and want to shoot it your way, then just do it, and let the scores come out as they may.

 

[Jim Watson]

The REAL problem is the other way around; when people try to apply the gunfighting tactics they have learned from the police academy, commercial facility, or Ultimate Pocket Rockets & Backup Tantos magazine to a scored sport with printed rules. It isn't the same thing and cannot be made a whole lot closer with reasonable effort.

Something else I picked up while researching another IDPA rules debate led me to the observation that IDPA is kind of a time warp. When Bill W. & co. organized IDPA in 1996 they were at least in part wiping out the changes they had seen in IPSC over the previous 10-15 years and trying to incorporate at least some "tactics."
As to the reload, 'The Modern Technique of the Pistol' by Gregory Boyce Morrison says:
"Speed reloading the handgun in the midst of a fight is rarely necessary."
"The practical pistol shot will be confronted with two reloading scenarios. First, and most likely, will be the need for a tactial reload."
"The second reload is competition derived... the quick "speed reload" has its place but lots of ammunition does not automatically lead to incapacitating wounds."

That, written in 1991 and based on what Jeff Cooper had been teaching for a good many years, is out of date in the teachings of Century XXI tactical trainers, but it is the sort of thing IDPA was built around. Fashions and the perception of "real world" needs change with or without good reason, but rules are a lot slower to mutate.

One thing, if you don't like the rules, don't "just do it and let the scores come out as they may." Not on my range. I do not approve of people doing their own thing and "taking the Procedural." If you want to demonstrate your tactial expertise, tell me, as MD, in advance so I will know what you are up to. I will score you in accordance with the rules, apply any appropriate penalties and tell the competitors not to follow your example. If you do something against safety rules (Recall the debates over the Sul Maneuver?) or if you surprise me badly by going off at a tangent, I will disqualify you and end your shooting.

 

[Brian Williams]

ANYTHING NOT HAVING TO DO WITH SAFETY.
Must be a carry or work rig and it must be safe.


Add one big rule. If you are gaming, you are DQ

Why do I have to have a 4" or less barrel?
Why limit the weight of a carry gun.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

Jim,
We have a few guys that always use good "tactics", just like they were taught. They are cool with taking the procedurals. They are in it for the training aspect. We have guys that insist on throwing any prop that they are given, at the cardboard threats. They aren't winning their divisions, but they don't care. Neither do I. They're having fun. I'm having fun watching. I haven't seen anyone stab a target...yet, but I'm sure it's coming!

What is the Sul Maneuver?

Brian,

Add one big rule. If you are gaming, you are DQ

This one is tough. How do you define "gaming"? I've found that the people that cry "gamer" are the people that are getting beat by better shooters. Claiming that someone was gaming a stage is an excuse for them. IDPA is a game. We keep score and give prizes. I'm not the greatest shooter in the world, but I can hold my own. I've been called a "gamer" a few times. I've called people "gamers" as well, but that was back when I wasn't as good. I'm obviously not saying that I'm better than you just because you may view me as a gamer. I'm merely stating what I've found in my studies of IDPA. Besides, everyone knows that the plural of anecdote is data.

 

[Brian Williams]

Yes it is a tough call but Gamers are those who would use a holster that would or could never be used to carry a gun in real life and things like that. Thinkers are those who solve the situation and beat it logically then finish it off in shooting.

 

[ChristopherG]

Sul is a 'safe' position with a handgun; it means 'south' in Portuguese, since the gun is held close to the body and pointed straight down, i.e. 'south'.

Here's a mondo thread on it:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=141774&highlight=sul+position

 

[j1133s]

I've only shot 3 local IDPA matches, but I already hate the FTDR rule. I mean it is way too subjective that I'm in constant fear of violating it. I mean, technically, from reading the rule book, I think anybody who wears a vest in ordr to speed the draw, etc. needs to get a FTDR.

I'd like to see this rule dropped.

 

[jmorris]

I wouldn't worry too much about the FTDR rule. I've never seen one given and only heard of it once, at last years nationals. If your playing right, the worst you'll get is another 3 seconds.

I have only one question when folks start the gamer whine. Do you pop corn using a pot of hot oil or do you use a microwave, I then call them a gamer.

 

[Hoser]

I think anybody who wears a vest in order to speed the draw, etc. needs to get a FTDR.

I'd like to see this rule dropped.

First you say you want anyone that wears a vest to get a FTDR then you say you want the TFDR to go away. Which one is it?

Dont worry about getting a FTDR, just shoot.

I encourage gaming at my matches. I like it when people think *within* the rules. When people find a loophole in my stage and exploit it, I learn something about stage design and about how to look at a stage from another perspective.

Those that snivel about gamers ect should just enlist in the Army and go to Iraq or Afghanistan. Thats real world. IDPA and all the other games arent anywhere close. To think they are anything else deserves a FTDR.

 

[Jim Watson]

My question to all such threads is:
"If they used your rule(s) would you win?
If so, great, start your own club to emphasize your strengths.
If not, it doesn't make any difference, play ball.

 

[jmorris]

Not my quote Hoser, I’d have too many FTDR’s if that were the case.

 

[j1133s]

First you say you want anyone that wears a vest to get a FTDR then you say you want the TFDR to go away. Which one is it?

I'm giving an exampl of how broad FTDR's interpretation can be made as the rule is written.

I see a lot of people use special gear that they put together just for IDPA such as fiber front sights, buying a Glock 34, a 9mm 1911 that w/o playing IDPA they would never use or carry. This sounds exactly like what FTDR is trying to prevent by a reading of the rules.

Perhaps I'm too inexperienced with IDPA, but in order to be competitive, I too have to go this route. With these purchases, I feel I'm not following the spirit of IDPA...

 

[j1133s]

Jim Watson,

From reading this thread, it seems to merely ask "what rules you'd like to change". It doesn't ask "what rules should change to help you score better". I.e. we are here to offer suggestions that may benefit IDPA as a whole rather then ourselves.

I don't know how experienced you are in shooting, but the shooters I've met are some truely wonderful people who don't think in terms of cheating. However, they are also smart people who wants to play by the rules and play it to the maximum.

In the spirit of THR, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and follow the path of thought that you are a typical shooter and wouldn't think of cheating. Please extend this allowance for others as others have shown you, Jim. Unless you know something about a person, there is no need to feel so paranoid. You'll sleep better at night.

 

[Jim Watson]

j1133s

I have been shooting IDPA since the first full year, card no 177. I shot IPSC and PPC for some years before that; as well as several other events. I have been cheated, cursed, and lied to and about but I still manage to consider such things isolated cases against the background of good sportsmanship in the shooting sports.

I have seen rules come and go, some I agreed with, some not.
Most of the proposals I have seen for rule changes have been to suit the proposer's own convenience. Some of them would suit me, too, but I do not kid myself that they would make a world of difference in my relative performance or that they are somehow good for the sport.

Most of the oddball rules are for the convenience of the Safety Officer; it is easier to see that a shooter's knee is on the ground than to tell if he is really all they way behind that barrel in a squat; it is easier to see that an empty magazine has been dropped behind cover than it is to tell for sure that the reload magazine did not come out before the shooter was behind cover, etc.
My personal pet peeve is the provision for an FTDR for "round dumping" in spite of its direct contradiction with the very definition of Vickers Count.

 

[Hoser]

Not my quote Hoser, I’d have too many FTDR’s if that were the case.

Ahhh. Got it. Saw it in your post and it didnt make much sense...