If Heller goes bad- Montana may secede???

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Titan6 said:
Since we are in a democracy it really depends upon your POV.
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Well, actually, a republic (and that's only if 'we can keep it'). You're right though, it depends on one's point of view. I say that if the Montanans feel that the federal government is doing such a poor job that their state has no option than to secede, who am I to rally the Georgian Natn'l Guard to help put down the rebellion, when I agree with everything Montana is doing in defiance?

Some here have ridiculed their actions as nothing more than mere chest thumping. Well, I would dare say that the list of grievances filed against King George III was nothing more than chest thumping, but good heavens, look what it led to. It isn't exactly getting easier to speak out against Washington, D.C. I have to admire anyone who tries at this point. :D
 
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I fear that if the Heller decision goes badly it could be the final straw. too many people would view this as loosing 3 out of the 4 boxes that safeguard our rights

1) the soap box (severly limited by the patriot act and free speech zones ect

2) the ballot box (not helping if agencys within our own goverment no longer answer to congress, example BATFE)

3) the Jury box (not much help if the supreme court will not uphold the bill of rights as written)

4) and the last option, the cartrige box ( god lets hope it never gets here,but its not looking good):(
 
Most of the discussion in this thread has been about the viability of secession. To some extent, I think that misses the point. Montana has stood up and said that the people still count and that the federal government can't just act as it pleases. Montana has recently made two such statements - about the Real ID Act and the Second Amendment. With luck, Montana's message will resonate with other states, which will add their voices to loudly tell the federal government "enough."
 
the ballot box (not helping if agencys within our own goverment no longer answer to congress, example BATFE)
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And increasingly, especially with "motor voter" laws and electronic voting, the ballot box itself is becoming increasingly suspect. Somehow they've managed to make a lot of folks lose faith that their votes are even being counted, much less that they count.
 
The answer is no doubt subjective, but I think it could certainly be ALOT worse. 143 years and THIS is the result thus far? Not too shabby.
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We are restricted and taxed in so many ways it is impossible to even count them. Just because the "world as we know it" seems normal because we were born into doesn't mean it is acceptable. Try being a member of one of the "bad" classes of people (felons, "registered sex offenders," "mental defectives,") and you find yourself in a very unfriendly country. (And trust me, there are a lot of people living with those labels who don't deserve them!) Most of us live under the delusion that we are free when in fact we are anything but! (Ever see The Truman Show?) If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, I'd bet money he would already be leading a revolution. Do you honestly think he would accept all the ways that the Federal Government violates the Constitution? Do you think he would tolerate a central government that spends billions of dollars every day?
 
Do you think he would tolerate a central government that spends billions of dollars every day?
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Nope. In addition, they went to war over a 3% tax.

As for secession, nothing in the Constitution forbids it. James Buchanan let the Confederate states secede because he knew he had no right to stop them. Also, the Constitutional ratifications of Virginia, New York, and Rhode Island reserved the right to leave the union if the central government became too repressive. Madison and Hamilton wrote the same thing into the Federalist Papers.

Good for Montana.
 
We are restricted and taxed in so many ways it is impossible to even count them.
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It could be worse, we could be in Europe. VAT is one nasty S.O.B. . They tax almost EVERY economic transaction, from farm to the franchise at a rate of 15%(E.U. minimum VAT) you end up paying something like $2.50 for a snickers bar, and it's ILLEGAL for the store not to include the tax in the sticker price! My cousins had a pretty good racket going selling candy they bought on base to the neighbor kids when they lived in Germany :D.
 
Good Court now Hope for goos decision

Based on the questions asked by the justices during the oral arguments on this 2nd ammendment case I feel a good or at least neutral decision is coming.

As to leaving the union? Not a lot of oil in Montana and being landlocked how you gonna import? Through foreign territory? No power grid to speak of, maybe the Canadians will loan you something, but they will want cash and the Montana treasury has no surplus or credit rating to borrow. You think its cold in Montana now? Leave the union and see how cold it gets.

I know running away and being Man Mountain Dean sounds appealing, (I know I left the Peoples Republic of California for the ranchland of Colorado and will forever be glad I did) but its unrealistic, unsafe and the quick road to nowhere. I'd rather argue and disagree with the guy in the fox-hole next to me, I don't care, long as when the bad guys show, he shoots the same direction I do.

I love Montana to look at and the spirit of its people but we are stronger as 50 states rather than a "Europe" of 50 different small insignificant countries. Remember, we tried that once in 1860, did not work out well. Another bad iidea, just like prohibition, all we did was create the mafia.

Stay Safe
 
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I love Montana to look at and the spirit of its people but we are stronger as 50 states rather than a "Europe" of 50 different small insignificant countries. Remember, we tried that once in 1860, did not work out well. Another bad iidea, just like prohibition, all we did was create the mafia.
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Your comparison is quite valid. We did creat the mafia out of 1860 and it has only gotten progressively stronger since. Unless there is some kind of rollback, we will continue to creep towards a dictatorship. Unfortunately most people are just fine with a democratic dictatorship (Because by definition they are in the majority).
 
I was thinking about the Montana legislature this morning. Overall, I don't think there's much potential for this to turn into bloodshed on any kind of a large scale. Legislators have made seccession noises before.
Andrew Jackson famously threatened to hang the South Carolinian legislators over their nullification act. He stated at the time that the US is a nation not a league. If the Montana legislators try to follow through on their recent proclamation, I believe we'll see a 21st century version of Old Hickory's response.

Will Shrub hang them from the highest trees in Montana? Nope. What will happen, though, is that the Feds will target those elected officials as their opening gambit. They won't go after the common people of Montana.

I seriously doubt that those legislators are all independently wealthy men who have all their assets in tangible form hoarded in their homes. IOW, they bank through banks that are part of the US banking system. Freezing their assets is no great feat. Probably many of them have debt that needs serviced, even if it is nothing more than car and mortgage payments. That debt is held by US banks, also. How inconvenient for them if they are unable to service the debt on their homes and other possessions.
What I'm getting at here is that the federal government has a million ways at their disposal to deal with these officials before they even get to the point where they issue warrants for arrest. Your yeoman patriot Montanans, however good and pure their intentions may be, won't have anyone at which to aim a rifle when everything is being done by electronic communications from a zillion miles away.
Time alone will see how this resolves.
 
Your yeoman patriot Montanans, however good and pure their intentions may be, won't have anyone at which to aim a rifle when everything is being done by electronic communications from a zillion miles away.
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It seems you forget someone pushes a button or clicks a mouse to do what you propose, and someone gives an order to do that, and legislators created the law that authorizes that as well.

Woody
 
Thernlund said:
The answer is no doubt subjective, but I think it could certainly be ALOT worse. 143 years and THIS is the result thus far? Not too shabby.
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I stand by my statement. It isn't perfect by any stretch, and there's always room for improvement. I desire some changes myself. For the most part though, I'm generally a happy person. I eat well, I enjoy life with my family, and am basically free to do as I want. I don't live in Guam, Iraq, North Korea, ect. THAT would be worse.

I think for some of you, nothing will ever be good enough.


-T.
 
It seems you forget someone pushes a button or clicks a mouse to do what you propose, and someone gives an order to do that, and legislators created the law that authorizes that as well.
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I'm not sure what your point is here. The fact remains that the orders given and the mice clicked to make a Montana legislator's life a miserable mess need not be anywhere near Montana.
Perhaps you are hinting darkly at reprisals here, but once again, at whom are you going to point that rifle? If you leave the newly minted Sovereign Nation of Montanatopia to attempt such reprisals, you are now (by the law of the US) just a criminal and quite likely a terrorist as well. I expect the US.gov will treat you as such. Even if you are willing to risk that, at whom do you point the rifle? Americans in general, and I suspect this is the case for people from Montana, don't have much sympathy for the "Assassinate Random Government Employees" method of doing things. Look what a beloved figure Timothy McVeigh is, for example.
No, the more I think about this, the less likely I think it is that anything at all will come of it. Montana will remain part of the US. The Montana officials who signed the document will almost certainly not do anything no matter how Heller is decided. This has been an amusing discussion, but it's right up there with discussing what would happen if Superman and Captain Marvel got into a fight.
Have a good one.
 
Not a lot of oil in Montana
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Then why are there at least 3 refineries within 50 miles of my house, and there is an oil pipeline running practically through my front yard? (though some of that oil comes from Canada, but I don't think they have anywhere else to send it)


Nobody is threatening to secede, just pointing out a possible violation of a legal contract. I suppose you would have everyone just sit quiet and never complain ...??? :rolleyes:

Neither is there going to be any bloodshed, unless the feral.gov starts it. I don't think they better start picking on our elected officials either :uhoh:

Most of you don't have any conception how ingrained the "gun culture" is in Montana. People aren't ashamed to talk about it like other places. Even 70 year old grey haired ladies get all fired up about any talk of gun control.
 
Thurnlund said:
I stand by my statement. It isn't perfect by any stretch, and there's always room for improvement. I desire some changes myself. For the most part though, I'm generally a happy person. I eat well, I enjoy life with my family, and am basically free to do as I want. I don't live in Guam, Iraq, North Korea, ect. THAT would be worse.

I think for some of you, nothing will ever be good enough.
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Are you truly happy? Or perhaps just comfortable, with a satisfactory illusion of happiness? I'll admit that things are comfortable. I can tune in to American Idol on HD, I've got my I-Pod full of music, and I'm getting one hell of a bribe from the U.S. Treasury come tax return to go out and "stimulate the economy." But when I read into the wisdom of the founders and see that the once intolerable actions of government are now the norm and even, at times, welcomed by the people, I can only shake my head.

This isn't really about things being "good enough." The founders warned us that the Constitution was not a flawless document.

But, taking a moment to compare how much government is in our lives today, versus how much was in our lives when the last stream of smoke had just cleared the muskets of the Continental Army, I personally don't feel that things are going all that well.

Edit: Are things going bad in Guam? U.S. territory?
 
Well, I don't think this thread outlived it's usefulness. It is quite important, and I also believe the most important thing here to remember is that the fedgov would be the ones to open fire in the beginning.

The fedgov has a strong recent history of saying one thing while meaning something completely different.

longrifleman, from a tactical standpoint, Montana would be screwed from that viewpoint because all they could achieve would be guerilla attacks. Their only strength would be folks living outside of the state who would be committed to their cause letting them know what was going to happen before it went down. Which would only work so long.

Also, the fedgov would have to do some stupid stuff.

For instance, the worst thing the fedgov could do is bring in foreigners to police our streets. That happens and it would be like when the Hessians were used against us in the revolution.

But tell me our government isn't stupid enough to make that mistake.

But getting back on topic, Montana succede? Maybe. But I still think we need to look at cost vs. reward. It advantages the Montanans to stay in the Union but be angry, and it benefits the fedgov to maintain a status quo. Nothing will happen for a while on this stuff short of a major meltdown in one way or another for the nation.

But, if that major meltdown occurs, Montana won't be the only state to succede, just the first.
 
50 different small insignificant countries
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Says who? For as much as this is a gun board, a lot of people don't realize the true meaning for the 2A. If it we actually respected it, you would have military grade weapons available to you. Look at Switzerland. How many times has that continent been engulfed in war? Their small "insignificant" state survived just fine.

We are already split up into states. Most of the things that we need in our daily lives are already being done by the state, and will continue to be done whether the feds are around or not.

If by insignificant you mean:
-No large military thats used to bully foreign nations who don't give into our politicians demands
-No large bureaucracies that tax us to death (you can say Europe is worse, but guess what? I don't care, this isn't Europe)
-No large corporation that feed off the massive government and in turn influence our corrupt politicians to do things that don't benefit the people, but the various complexes bottom line.

If that means we are "insignificant", then I welcome it. It's not like we are going to turn into some 3rd world country if we abandoned the feds.
 
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