If Heller goes bad- Montana may secede???

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We are not the most free on earth. In fact we have the highest percentage of our population in prison of any nation on earth and the rates are stunningly high when compared to other countries.
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Of course China doesn't have a history of summarily executing its prisoners nor are they particularly forthcoming about that sort of internal information. Good old Mother Russia is of course another source of acurate up to the minute info about their internal crime problems.
For me I'll lay a big part of the problem with prison populations on 2 major issues the BS "war on drugs" and the 3+ gnerations of welfare and social engineering brought to us by the idiot liberals who have commandeered the Democrat party. That is the root cause of the "ME" society that fails to recognize personal responsibilty.
 
I keep hearing about this, but how soon are they going to decide this? Are they going to wait until they've got some more socialist judges on the bench?
 
Am I the only one that finds the notion of secession silly? It could happen, but none of us will ever see it. ESPECIALLY over Heller.
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Never say never. A lot can change in a very short period of time.

I don't want to see such a thing happen, personally - I'd rather fix the wonderful nation we've got than throw it out and start afresh - but it could happen. Relatively small things can serve as a big impetus for change, and a big occurrence can have an astounding impact, almost overnight. Look at 9/11. Look at the assassinations which led to WWI. Look at the changes which brought about the Roman Empire from the Roman Republic. Look at how quickly the Nazi regime (and the economy of Germany) grew to power and prominence.

These are all "giants falling from clouds" and "David slaying Goliath" type situations. Like a raging forest fire, they require a specific, complex environment in which to occur, but the impetus needed to start the whole thing off is just a little spark.

What would happen if we had another NOLA type event (complete with governmental thuggery and theft), but in the depths of an economic recession? Dunno. Probably wouldn't cause problems, but maybe it would. Even during NOLA, despite the high percentage of urban thugs in NOLA, there were people who were ranting about the over-reaches of the federal government.

Take away the person's warm house and easy computer access, and make life a little more difficult, and that person may instead be at city hall, trying to form a posse with the other people in his situation.
 
Remember Key West declared it's independence to prove a point- and it worked. Long live the Conch Republic!!!

If Montana did try to leave the US do you actually think that the Feds would send troops in? I don't think we're talking about some kind battle with state militia vs. the US Army here. I don't see the US Army attacking an elected body unless that elected body starts a shooting war. I suspect that the matter would be negotiated until Montana and the Feds come up with a resolution to the matter that kept Montana as one of the 50 states IF it ever got to that point. I agree wholeheartedly with Montana's position and commend them for having the guts to stand up for their principles.

I'd miss Montana as a state. There are a couple states that I wouldn't miss one bit... California comes to mind. At least if they left we could build a wall to keep them isolated and avoid the contamination adjacent states.:neener:

!
 
Prior to Montana becoming a state, it was a territory created by Congress and under the total control of the U.S. Government.
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Only by virtue of handing some money to an European state for land that was at the time inhabited by and firmly in control of the Blackfeet, Crow, Souix, et al ... :rolleyes:

I'm a great fan of Jefferson overall, but the LP was not only unconstitutional (which he himself recognized) but has also been a great harm to freedom in general :(

We certainly didn't need the LP to expand westward. I doubt the cattleman and gold hunters would have had any more respect for the authority of Spain or France than they did for above mentioned residents.
 
Everyone knows the federal goverment has gotten way tooo big and is out of hand.
The "feds" were never suppose to have power over States Rights, never to have a "standing Army" unless at war, and never suppose to "own"land, other than DC.

IF Montana is serious, and they do "try" to leave the "Union"----THAT WOULD BE ONE HELLA OF A WAKE-UP CALL!!! to the Feds.

They ( the feds ), would have NO CLUE how to deal with---one of our own leaving!!!

I don't want to see a "civil war" and I think there would be alot of debatting about it,,,,,,,,,,but how many of us "here" would just sit by and watch??

We are NOT talking about some "gun nut" or a Waco compound----we are taking about "our fellow Americans" doing what we'd all do.

Maybe Montana couldn't pull it off,,,,,,,,,,but I'll bet all I own,,,,it will go down in history and THINGS WOULD CHANGE.

I just hope the people in Montana----don't have to "fire" the first shot!!!

If Montana takes a "stand"----the Feds better be watching their "backs" as well as their "fronts"-----It could start a real "**** STORM" NOBODY WANTS

We all live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA-------------"UNITED" (key word)--------NOT the FEDERAL STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!

I am sure there are "some of us" in EVERY state of the Union, that believe the Federal Goverment has NO / or should have no control over OUR States, and IF we ALL got together and made a "stand" in Montana's behalf, the Feds would have to BACKDOWN.

UJ
 
Montana is just ahead of the curve. If they withdrew from the United States, they could apply to be a charter member of the North American Union. Soon, we would have a NAU of red states, and blue states, and Canadian provinces, and Mexican states. The NAU could rival the EU as a disfunctional collection of sovereign entities, squabbling over doing some things the same and others differently.

(Yes, I am just joking.)
 
You laugh.

Consider:
- There is a non-trivial consideration for secession by Montana and Vermont, with occasional consideration of Texas, Alaska and Hawaii doing the same.
- Quebec came within a 0.1% vote of leaving Canada not long ago.
- Residents of Canada's maritime provinces figure it's just a matter of time before they join the USA (esp. as Quebec independence would cut them off from the rest of their country).
- The Azltan movement is not a trivial threat, should tens of millions of Mexico-preferring residents decide simultaneous non-cooperation with the USA.
- Claims of a North American Union forming are not entirely without merit.
- The Late Unpleasantness in the South still has many supporters.

Given a sufficiently incompetent President, enough planning by those so inclined*, and a sparking event, the associations of sub-national jurisdictions may get shuffled.

"'tain't funny, McGee."

* - I'm not so inclined. I'm just trying to make sense of things.
 
Sometimes you need to laugh to keep from spiraling off into ... unusual discussions involving nukes.

There was more than a bit of seriousness underlying my tongue-in-check description. The world is changing and the jumbo-sized "empires" that dominated history for the last several centuries are fading away. The world is moving toward a different structure that appears to involve economic unification combined with social balkanization. That's not such a bad movement in my opinion, because it is suspiciously similar to the original concept of the United States - small sovereign states unified primarily for economic and defensive purposes. I would not be upset if the United States devolved back to that original concept.
 
The North American Union is not a dream. It is real. NAFTA and the Trans Texas Corridor (a NAFTA Superhighway) are the first forays into the union of America, Canada and Mexico. The coin of the realm is called the Amero. Sickening, isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

They did it in Europe, they're trying here, Africa (good luck there - they can't agree what color the sky is), Asia, all the continents.

All leading to a one world government - it was the reason the U.N. was formed, and they're making it happen, slowly but surely.
 
There is also another factor to count in, and that's the economy. When the US "suceeded" from Britain in colonial times, we did so largely because the economic decisions the Brits made for us concerning payback for the French and Indian War. Alot of people ended up begging, which finally brought alot of folks onto the side of the separatists who up to then, were mainly New England traders.

Right now, there are some nasty economic things happening related to the mortgage meltdown related to the derivatives market. Before it's all over, succession might look good if there is no SUV, and the nightly news is about foreclosures, and the Chinese using sovereign funds to buy large chunks of the US.

Not saying this is THE future, but it could happen.
 
Libertyteeth said:
If, as many fear, another false flag "terrorist" attack occurs, and martial law is imposed (including gun confiscation), then all bets are off. I would not be surprised if Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Alberta, BC, and Alaska form the nucleus of a new free nation, but not without a lot of grief.
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That (the formation of such a free state, not the horror preceding it) would be totally awesome and welcome (by me, at least), but what, in Heaven's name, would we call it!?!
 
Montana legislators are a bunch of idiots; I know, I helped put some of them in office. Montana isn't going anywhere. What you're hearing is a bunch of jibberish from a greater bunch of fools.
Montana will conform to any patriot act, because failure to do so will mean loss of money and lots of it.
All I'm hearing on this thread is a lot of chicken littles doin' a lot of clucking.
 
Watch out for when those chickens turn around.

Oh, and have you ever watched a cock fight?

How about a tea party?

Ah, never mind. You are listening to the wrong people. The people who need to be heeded are those who will show up on the street when the time comes - the people who are silent at the moment - the people who are not on anyone's watch list - the people you don't know who in the wide world of world sports are - the people you don't know to disarm.

Secession is not the end of prosperity or security for any state that chooses to leave this Union. There'd be no onerous environmental laws and agencies hovering over your shoulder every time you wished to drill for oil, or mine some coal or iron, or build a refinery or nuclear power plant. Such a former state could secure its borders, collect tolls, manufacture and import/export arms, grant lands in exchange for militia duties and promises to farm the land.

No, it's not bells tolling the death knell for such a state. It's the din of the cash registers you hear ringing in your ears. That is how it was in the beginning of this country. Unfettered opportunity.

I've seen a trend lately: States are picking up where the Union has let us down such as the new laws in Oklahoma and Arizona that stops state hand-outs to non-citizens, and will punish those who hire illegals. The trend will continue until we elect a batch of right(proper) thinking representatives who will dump all the useless onerous agencies, tackle the responsibilities they are supposed to tackle, clear the liberals off the Court, and set the people free once more.

I think that is the message Montana is trying to send to Congress, and to inspire the rest of us.

Woody

You all need to remember where the real middle is. It is the Constitution. The Constitution is the biggest compromise - the best compromise - ever written. It is where distribution of power and security of the common good meets with the protection of rights, freedom, and personal sovereignty. B.E.Wood
 
Secession is not the end of prosperity or security for any state that chooses to leave this Union. There'd be no onerous environmental laws and agencies hovering over your shoulder every time you wished to drill for oil, or mine some coal or iron, or build a refinery or nuclear power plant. Such a former state could secure its borders, collect tolls, manufacture and import/export arms, grant lands in exchange for militia duties and promises to farm the land.

No, it's not bells tolling the death knell for such a state. It's the din of the cash registers you hear ringing in your ears. That is how it was in the beginning of this country. Unfettered opportunity.
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You have a future in stand-up comedy.
 
I think Montana seceding would be a great start to a better future. This country tried implementing a federal government, and instead of preserving liberty, it has destroyed it. What have the feds given us? A war on our own citizens(drugs and terrorism), false flag attacks, a destroyed bill of rights, fiat money which is quickly losing its value, and a host of other unconstitutional laws. The federal government originally ruled over 13 states. Now its up to 50, and that's a whole bunch of consolidated power. Now we are moving towards a NAU (hence why no "mainstream" politician is serious about protecting the border) which will further erode our liberties. Enough is enough. Lets face it, smaller government gives us more liberty and local politicians are easier to control and monitor then federal ones. This trend needs to be reversed and I hope Montana kicks it off. I bet Russia would quickly recognize the new country of Montana too.


If this thing were to get started, they most likely won't be calling in federal troops for two reasons:
1. short supply right now
2. American's in the armed forces would be deeply divided about attacking these "homegrown terrorists"

In all likely-hood, I would expect to see Canadian or UN troops in there doing the bulk of the fighting. I think a few dedicated Montanans using guerrilla tactics could win this, it has been done before (and once the fence sitters see this is real, it may convince more to join). Attack communications, transport, and ambush invading troops when you have the chance. Not to mention these guys aren't limited to Montana, they could pull off operations anywhere inside the US/Canada. No one is going to outright attack professional soldiers, it's a losing proposition, nor is it necessary to control the nukes since no one will be using them (ever).
 
You have a future in stand-up comedy.
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Yeah, I'm good looking, too. But, seein's how it's the future of the Union we're discusin', leave me out of this, OK?

Thanks.

Woody

Our government was designed by our Founding Fathers to fit within the framework of our rights and not vise versa. Any other "interpretation" of the Constitution is either through ignorance or is deliberately subversive. B.E. Wood
 
An interesting thread.
As far as fighting a guerilla war, that is a guaranteed loser. Don't copy tactics from a losing cause, copy from the winners. Ghandi is a much better choice than Stonewall Jackson.

What would the Union troops do if they were met at the border by a thousand unarmed men and women holding copies of the updated Declaration of Independence? Kill them all in cold blood? If they did, that would guarantee the Union loses. If the secessionists shoot first, the outcome will likely be the same as firing on Ft. Sumpter.

The likelyhood of this happening is much higher than I think most people realise. There are two opposite trends working in the world today, with the EU and the NAU getting the press, but the real long term trend is the opposite.

Canada came close to splitting and the tension still exists. Belgium recently almost did the same, and they haven't solved their problems. Ksovo. The Basques in Spain. The old USSR, and they probably aren't done. The Chechens aren't the only unhappy folks over there. The Kurds. Kashmir. Scotland and Wales. The Irelands. That list is far from complete.

Every time I look around the world, the old nation-states are constantly under pressure to give more power and control to the local "tribes". Sometimes it will happen peacefully. Usually the elites will kill as many as necessary to maintain control. Let's hope we are smart enough to avoid that if it ever really comes to that point here.

As others in this thread have pointed out, the fault lines in America are pretty easy to see. I hope we can stay together, but I am afraid that our political class is just as arrogant and power hungry as any in the world, and will push and push until they break the country.
 
There'd be no onerous environmental laws and agencies hovering over your shoulder every time you wished to drill for oil, or mine some coal or iron, or build a refinery or nuclear power plant.
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How do you know there would be no environmental laws or agencies?
The coal and oil already belong to somebody. Are they going to relinquish it to you for free? If the new nation starts right off by siezing property and redistributing ownership, how much trust should I have in it? Refineries and , especially, nuclear power plants are huge capital investments. Who is going to capitalize this investment and why would they want to put it in the new pissant nation of Montana, especially if the US is taking a hostile economic stance to the new nation?
Such a former state could secure its borders, collect tolls, manufacture and import/export arms, grant lands in exchange for militia duties and promises to farm the land.
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Somebody already owns the land. Once again you are talking about a new nation that starts its existence by siezing and redistributing property. Collecting tolls from whom? Manufacture and import/export arms? The US and Canada tolerating a rogue state that want to play in the international arms market? That is funny!

You go ahead and keep telling bright, shiny fairytales though. Montana isn't going to leave the union and since this is just intertube gassing you have every right to tell your utopian version of how the mythical nation of Montana would be.
 
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