If it can do this to steel what would it do to a BG?

[Manco]

I haven't had a chance to use the chrono, but CCI stingers make a huge muzzle flash in a .22 handgun while they don't make much in a rifle. I think Velocitors use a similar powder charge. I have some I can test next time I'm at the range, but I think both of those suffer a lot in a handgun and the flash is as obnoxious as a full charge of 2400 in a .357.

The problem with the Stinger is not too little velocity out of even handgun barrels, but too much, despite all of the waste. Here are some relevant ballistics test results:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/22lr/cci22-32stgr-r2245.htm

Out of a 5.5" barrel in the tests above, expansion is consistent and fragmentation is not uncommon, but penetration is definitely lacking. It may penetrate enough to kill people sometimes, but it does not meet my standards based on all of the things that can happen during a shooting. Out of shorter barrels, it may actually penetrate better, but the bullet's structural integrity is weak, so I wouldn't count on it to penetrate bone, for example. Considering the great amount of respect it gets on forums, undoubtedly based largely on its observed effects on tiny animals and a casual glance at its impressive-looking numbers, I consider the Stinger vastly overrated as a defensive load against humans.

On the other hand, the Velocitor uses a heavier, stronger bullet that does not expand at the velocities achieved in handgun barrels, and penetrates deeply even when shot out of fairly short barrels, as seen in the following test:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/WaltherP22test.html

It also works well out of rifles, with both decent penetration and expansion, making it a versatile load for defensive use against humans.

 

[cz75bcrazy]

The only thing you gain from a large bullet is more room for error, because the bullet is bigger it hits more thing making it more effective tho if you hit a vital organ it makes no difference if a .22 or a .45 goes through a heart or brain that's the end of it. Now if your aim is just a little off the .45 has a higher chance of reaching over and touching something that madder or if you miss an organ completely yes they would bleed out faster but I'm not thinking anyone's going for incapacitation by blood loss as that takes way to long. Aim is everything else your just trying to wound someone.

 

[Ironclad]

Everyone on here always says that all handguns are a poor substitute for a rifle or a shotgun. If the difference in energy between a rifle and a big pistol caliber matters so much, why doesn't the energy difference between a .22 and a .45 matter?

 

[Manco]

Everyone on here always says that all handguns are a poor substitute for a rifle or a shotgun. If the difference in energy between a rifle and a big pistol caliber matters so much, why doesn't the energy difference between a .22 and a .45 matter?

It's not merely about how various calibers compare to one another, but how the human body responds physically to their effects, in this case mainly in terms of thresholds. Since .45 ACP does not have enough energy to wound beyond what the bullet actually touches (i.e. it falls short of the minimum energy threshold for effective wounding by shock), it can't compare to a centerfire rifle caliber. How it compares in terms of energy to .22 LR is a completely separate and irrelevant matter.

I think this concept is akin to how people keep pointing out how much larger the bullets of some calibers are than others, and automatically expect them to be exactly that much more effective. That is, if one bullet is four times larger than another, for example, then intuitively it should be four times more effective. While this may seem to make sense, it's just not how things work in reality because, once again, we have to factor in the properties of the target, not just the bullets and calibers themselves. Like I mentioned in a previous post, the human body is a lot larger than bullets, so what may seem like a massive difference in size when just narrowly comparing little bullets is really far less significant in the big picture.

This is especially true when we consider the critical importance of shot placement. To illustrate, if you were shooting at a typical bullseye, would a bullet that is four times larger than another make your aim four times more accurate? In other words, are you four times more likely to hit the bullseye? With this in mind, now what do your intuition and experiences tell you? The probabilities are a lot closer than that, I think, and the same goes for the effectiveness of .22 LR (because it can penetrate sufficiently) in comparison to .45 ACP. While the latter is indeed more effective per round than the former, the actual difference is small, not large like so many people seem to believe.

Back to the original topic, high-powered rifle calibers generally have enough energy to stretch human flesh far and quickly enough to tear it without even touching it, which puts them in a whole different league than .45 ACP and smaller calibers. Since both .22 LR and .45 ACP are below the threshold, the difference in energy between them doesn't matter nearly as much.

 

[1SOW]

It's simple for me. I used to shoot jack rabbits on the run with 22lr.

Friends and I would line up 3, 4 abreast and walk West TX range and flush the jack rabbits.

Unless you hit them just right, a hit will just change the direction they run. They can run at 40+mph for a while. We even worked out that it meant a 9' lead if they ran "across" our field of fire at a certain distance.

On the other hand, when hit with a centerfire rifle (and once with that little 5mm Rem rimfire), they tend to stop when they are hit.

No science here, but none is needed.

 

[BeerSleeper]

This thread introduced me to the M22. I thought it was a neat gun, read about it, thought about it, and went out and bought one.
Didn't have any steel targets, but I took it to the range yesterday, and it stopped a lot of paper. It stopped every one of them, and it stopped them faster than they could return fire!

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7124393#post7124393

My thanks to the OP for introducing me to this model. I think it's a pretty neat little gun.

 

[Manco]

It's simple for me. I used to shoot jack rabbits on the run with 22lr.

Friends and I would line up 3, 4 abreast and walk West TX range and flush the jack rabbits.

Unless you hit them just right, a hit will just change the direction they run. They can run at 40+mph for a while. We even worked out that it meant a 9' lead if they ran "across" our field of fire at a certain distance.

On the other hand, when hit with a centerfire rifle (and once with that little 5mm Rem rimfire), they tend to stop when they are hit.

No science here, but none is needed.

This shows us the difference between high-powered centerfire rifles and .22 LR, but I wonder how a .45 ACP pistol would fair against a hare under the same conditions, relative to .22 LR. All I can say is that whatever that difference may be, it would be a lot less significant against much larger humans.

 

[NMGonzo]

For every .45 acp hole there are 5 to be made with .22 more or less.

Just saying.

 

[Manco]

For every .45 acp hole there are 5 to be made with .22 more or less.

Just saying.

So hypothetically speaking, given random shot placement I suppose, would you rather be shot with one .45 ACP or five .22 LR bullets?

If I had no other choice, I'd rather be shot by one .45 ACP than two .22 LR bullets, let alone five.

 

[NMGonzo]

So hypothetically speaking, given random shot placement I suppose, would you rather be shot with one .45 ACP or five .22 LR bullets?

If I had no other choice, I'd rather be shot by one .45 ACP than two .22 LR bullets, let alone five.

I rather not to be shot, and since we are not going to choose what are we going to be shot with, I decline the choice :

 

[WifeofBleys]

My thanks to the OP for introducing me to this model. I think it's a pretty neat little gun.

You're very welcome, BeerSleeper. I hope you continue to enjoy the M22.

 

[BeerSleeper]

Load it up with CCI stingers sometime. It's like shooting fireballs! It's got more flash than my .40

 

[WifeofBleys]

Sounds like fun! Currently, we are following ISSC's recommendations for the breaking-in period (200 rounds to go of CCI mini-mags 40 gr). After that, I've got 525 rounds of Blazer (40 gr). Then I want to try lots of other brands and see if it will "like" everything, or if it's going to be picky....

 

[BeerSleeper]

Where are those recommendations? I didn't see anything about it in the manual, although I read through it in a hurry.
CCI minimags are what have been working flawlessly for me so far.

 

[Manco]

I rather not to be shot,

I wasn't planning to prove anything empirically here.

and since we are not going to choose what are we going to be shot with, I decline the choice :

That's your prerogative, certainly, but purely as a thought experiment, I think that such an exercise can offer an interesting perspective and may be quite revealing in certain cases. It's sort of like a form of the Golden Rule, only it's: "Shoot bad guys with whatever you yourself would rather not get shot with."

 

[WifeofBleys]

Where are those recommendations? I didn't see anything about it in the manual, although I read through it in a hurry.
CCI minimags are what have been working flawlessly for me so far.

I saw the recommendations in a review I read about the M22 online. Also, the gun shop where I bought it made the same recommendations. I will try to locate the review and PM you the link.

 

[BleysAhrens]

Wifeofbleys, you should get this. I bet the husband would love it and stop bothering you about another gun....
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/issc-austria-msr-mk22-22lr-hv-rifle%2C-new-/products_id/5589?osCsid=5c90fd2c177604be138de0dcca8b4fee
I hear J&G is just down the road from you...
Maybe a belated valentines day gift...?

 

[WifeofBleys]

I'll be sure to keep your suggestion in mind, BleysAhrens. Maybe then we can stop fighting over the M22!?

 

[bigfatdave]

Load it up with CCI stingers sometime. It's like shooting fireballs! It's got more flash than my .40

Stingers in a handgun are fun ... but that flash is because the rounds are formulated for a rifle barrel, and flash doesn't cause an involuntary stop (it may, however, assist a voluntary stop)

CCI probably makes the best ammo for the marginal .22 caliber, but Stingers may not be ideal, they fragment.

WifeofBleys, please remember that you've shifted the hardware/software balance pretty much all the way to software, if you're going to rely on that pistol for defensive use you need to be extremely skilled with it under stress. I hope you're doing more with it than occasional plinking or shooting on a square range.

 

[BeerSleeper]

I wasn't implying that stingers had SD value. I know they have a slower powder to get the greater velocity from a rifle barrel. What I don't know is how much they lose when fired from a pistol length barrel. Chrony results would surely be interesting.

 

[LKB3rd]

A .22 would definitely kill someone, it's a question of whether it will stop someone fast enough to injure prevent them from injuring you.

 

[bigfatdave]

Chronograph results would be interesting, if you have the chronograph I'll supply the range, ammo and guns, how about a semiauto pistol and rifle plus a revolver and a lever-rifle? (wait a bit and I might even have a lever-pistol from Henry)

 

[BeerSleeper]

I don't have a chrono.

It's on my wishlist, but there's a few things ahead of it (progressive press), so it won't be anytime soon.

 

[chrome_austex]

I've got a little bersa firestorm .22lr, which is a blast to shoot.

I have no doubt in it's ability to punch small holes, but a hit to an arm or leg probably won't phase an excited attacker. They'd hear the noise, but probably not know they'd been shot for a few moments unless you hit something immediately vital, which is sort of scary if they're armed with something bigger.

I've got a fullsize P99 in 9mm and a S&W j-frame. Recoil is related to the caliber of the round and the weight and geometry of the gun.

If you have trouble with a P99c in .40 (which I can completely understand), I'd go for something in 9mm which is relatively heavy. Recoil should be mild, and stopping power will be reasonable. The other big factor is your grip. If you're not holding the gun with the best possible grip, you're suffering more recoil that you need to.

 

[1SOW]

This shows us the difference between high-powered centerfire rifles and .22 LR, but I wonder how a .45 ACP pistol would fair against a hare under the same conditions, relative to .22 LR. All I can say is that whatever that difference may be, it would be a lot less significant against much larger humans.

Whether its "a lot less significant" or not, is irrelevant. It's proportionally significant.
A minimum combination of speed and mass is more likely to be "significant.

A great deal of field testing has been done since 1965 or so, and the participants in these tests have never asked to be issued a .22lr for field work.