If teachers could have guns, ....

[siglite]

I conceed that I left out some information, There is a diffrence to me in a person walking by my kids while carring and leaving my kid with a person and a gun for 8 hours a day for school.

What is your school's proximity to any firearms, or anyone who carries? I suppose you would advocate the "gun free school zones?" No guns within 1000 feet of schools. For the chilluns.

Sorry but go hang out at the local range and count the errors in safety in just 8 hours.

I spent ten on the range today (arfcom shoot) and counted zero. And those were arfcommers!

Would you leave your child with a person like that? If they are that careless when it doesnt count how are they going to act in a threat environment?

This sounds a lot like what I've heard referred to as "projection." When a person feels that they wouldn't be safe doing $x $y, or $z, they project their fears onto society as a whole. Of course, it could just be plain old fashioned elitism. There are kids around firearms for greater than 8 hour stretches every single day times a hundred thousand or so. And kids being accidentally shot by unsafe gun-handling is so rare as to be essentially statistically negligible. The numbers are over at CDC. Go have a look.

I am simply saying unless I know you and how you act with a gun I would rather not leave my kid with you.

I suspect you extend this not only to your kids, but society as a whole. I've seen a running theme in your posts that seems elitist. As in, you're the only person you trust with a gun. I find this disturbing. I've seen this attitude before. Rosie O'Donnel and her armed security come to mind. Among others.

We have all heard about the cop that left his gun in the stall of the restroom.

I've heard of people being struck by falling pianos. Just because a thing has happened does not mean that it's common enough to affect YOU or YOUR life. This has happened once that we know of. People are struck by lightning with frightening regularity by comparison. Even children. How do you deal with this probability issue? Children are killed with monotonous regularity in car crashes by comparison. Who will you let drive your child around. Anyone? No one? Just you? Do you require that the road be devoid of those reckless crazies before you go out with your child in the car, lest some irresponsible driver hit and kill them? Far be it from me to tell another man how to raise his children. But exactly how sheltered are these kids? And when you're doing your threat analysis before making decisions about who's allowed to do what by your standards, what threat / risk model are you using?

This will most certianly happen in a school too, then you have children most of which I dare say have little to no exposure to fire arms able to handle a gun.

NO ONE is suggesting that we arm the children.

Its just curousity but that has also lead to many accidental shootings.

Do you really think that a curious teacher will shoot a child just to see what happens? What are you talking about?

Bottom line and again teachers are just like every one else there are idiots in every crowd and an idiot with a gun need not be around my kid.

It sounds very much to me like you do not wish for anyone to be armed. The more I read of your posts, the more you sound like an anti. Denials or no.

Getting a ccw permit in va is easy almost any one can do it. There is no test required(which is fine) but it does not guarentee that a person knows what they are doing with a gun.

Oh my... you mean they'll just let anyone exercise their god-given unalienable right without regard to race, religion, social status, and level of ninjitsu training?! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

 

[TAB]

my... you mean they'll just let anyone exercise their god-given unalienable right without regard to race, religion, social status, and level of ninjitsu training?! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

so if its god given why is 90% of the worlds population restriced from doing so? Also last time I checked the word gun is not listed anywhere in any holy text.

 

[siglite]

so if its god given why is 90% of the worlds population restriced from doing so? Also last time I checked the word gun is not listed anywhere in any holy text.

Reject the words of the founders, huh?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

And the constitution that followed.... The BoR is an enumeration of those rights, endowed by our creator. And what's with the "90% of the world's population restricted" crap? Are you suggesting we should model our freedoms after Europe and Asia because the word "gun" doesn't appear in holy texts?

What exactly are you trying to say here. Spill it.

Are you telling me you reject the constitution from the gitgo?

 

[TAB]

so show me where it says that every one can carry a gun, let alone carry a gun conceiled.

So if its a god given right its only given to a select few? That does not sound very "christan" ( and the found fathers were talking about christan men)

 

[Eric F]

siglite

What is your school's proximity to any firearms, or anyone who carries? I suppose you would advocate the "gun free school zones?" No guns within 1000 feet of schools. For the chilluns.

not once did you see that any where in my post you are adding false statements.
and I find

chilluns

to be not so high road and derogatory

what I said is

There is a diffrence to me in a person walking by my kids while carring and leaving my kid with a person and a gun for 8 hours a day for school.

how do draw your conclusions?

I spent ten on the range today (arfcom shoot) and counted zero. And those were arfcommers!

wow you went to an organised shoot and saw no safety errors go figure I have been to 2 day idpa and 3 gun matches and never saw a violation. Like I said go to a public range and watch.

This sounds a lot like what I've heard referred to as "projection."

why dont you answer the question instead of adding your assumptions? well would you leave your kid with a person you do not know and who is also unsafe with a gun?

I suspect you extend this not only to your kids, but society as a whole. I've seen a running theme in your posts that seems elitist.

nope wrong again I fell like every parent has the right to provide for their childern in their own fassion, if you or my neighbor or my brother wants to leave their kid with a person they do not know thats your business I prefer to keep tabs on my kid and assist them through life.

As in, you're the only person you trust with a gun. I find this disturbing

wrong there are lots of folks I trust with a gun because I know them. what you should find disturbing is that you add on and read into my posts too much take a break! I generaly do not make it a habbit to run around and look for folks with a gun. If you have one fine, if you have one and I see it fine, but that does not mean you are going to watch my kid for me because I dont know you.

Just because a thing has happened does not mean that it's common enough to affect YOU or YOUR life.This has happened once that we know of.

tell me that about this date 9-11-01 terriorist attacks on main land US are not that common.

Children are killed with monotonous regularity in car crashes by comparison. Who will you let drive your child around. Anyone? No one? Just you?

again only people I know and trust. I know my brothers but I would not trust them to drive my groceries let alone my kid.

Do you require that the road be devoid of those reckless crazies before you go out with your child in the car, lest some irresponsible driver hit and kill them?

Yeah I do actually but I find myself getting ignored by the public on this requirement. lol!

Far be it from me to tell another man how to raise his children.

no I agree you are not telling any one how to raise their kids
BUT YOU SURE DO A GOOD JOB AT QUESTIONING HOW THEY DO IT

Quote:
This will most certianly happen in a school too, then you have children most of which I dare say have little to no exposure to fire arms able to handle a gun.

NO ONE is suggesting that we arm the children

I was talking about kids finding an unattended gun.

Do you really think that a curious teacher will shoot a child just to see what happens? What are you talking about?

see the above that should clear that up.

It sounds very much to me like you do not wish for anyone to be armed. The more I read of your posts, the more you sound like an anti. Denials or no.

Yeah I guess so since you add so much onto my posts. Why dont you read something for what it is instead of reading into it? To me you sound like you are so wraped up into being so pro-gun that you make others into anti gunners even though they are not.

So once again If you want a gun fine if you want to teach my kid fine I will just have to get to know you. If you want to carry a gun while teaching my kid fine I will have to get to know you a lot better. How is this anti gun
I hope this clears it up for ya siglite

 

[jmr40]

I suppose it may be a regional thing but in 28 years of teaching I have never met a anti-gun teacher. I have worked for 11 different principals and all of them have been gun owners and hunters. I see my current principal at the range quite often.

The requirement to keep guns 1000' from a school was dropped years ago because it was impossible to enforce. In fact it is perfectly legal to bring your gun onto school property here as long as you are dropping off your child or picking them up. Park and come into the building and you are technically in violation even if you leave your gun in the car, but no one is going to care as long as it is out of sight.

We have a sort of unofficial "don't ask, don't tell" policy here, but I wish it were legal to at least keep a gun in my vehicle while at work.

 

[dogtown tom]

Quote by another okie
Yes, yes, most teachers are basically socialists and wouldn't carry even if you gave them free training and a free gun. But that doesn't mean we made the laws. We didn't. I didn't. That's like saying the National Firearms Act is my fault.

The post said we had made our beds and should lie down in it. Well, I had nothing to do with the law. That law has been in effect since long before I was born, or before anyone else teaching at my college was born. I've agitated for the law allowing everyone with a CCW to carry on campus.


If you want to know why most teachers are so left-wing, here's a list:

1. They are mostly women. Women tend to want safety and security ahead of independence and self reliance. They view safety and security as something someone else provides, either a husband, a father, or a police officer.

2. They are mostly government employees, who have chosen a career with a low income in return for job security and good benefits. Like most other government employees, they think government action is more "moral" than private action.

3. They are mostly non-veterans and many grew up in mom-headed households with no guns around. All they know about guns is what they see in movies.

4. The few exceptions tend to be in engineering, hard sciences, law, medicine, and business. That's where you'll find your academic conservatives and your gun folks, too.

5. Few conservatives are willing to give up the many years of income required to get the advanced degrees necessary to get a college teaching job, which then doesn't even pay that well.

6. There is a lot of "group think" in academic life, and it is not easy disagreeing with it. There's an old saying that a liberal is someone who believes everyone has a right to their opinion, but doesn't really believe anyone thinks differently than they do. If you want to know what it's like, read Mike Adam's columns at townhall.org. He's a conservative, Christian professor of criminology at a state university.

Quote by TCB in TN
This entire post is a bunch of bunk and deserves to be ripped to shreds! Were a post like this posted about LEOs the thread would be locked immediately!

#1 Yes most ARE women, but you have obviously not spoke with a large number of female teachers from both rural and inner city schools. Just like police admin associations speak for the group, while the rank and file just go on about their business! Here locally I know of many female teachers who CC, and are very open and honest about it. I have yet to hear anyone complain to them about it either. Teachers talk a lot about the possibility of an active shooter and you would be suprised how often the topic of armed teachers actually comes up.

#2 Most teachers go into and stay in teaching because, get this ...... they love kids. Yes of course there are a few jerks, and wastes of space, but aren't there in every profession? Honestly if most teachers only taught because of the security, then why would so many spend so much of their own time and money (most spend 100s and some even 1000s of dollars of their own money each year for class supplies, food, and other things FOR their students!

#3 Really only folks out of veterans homes are usually pro-gun. That is just about the most stupid comment I have yet heard! It also fly's in the face of the 300,000,000 guns in the US stat! I would LOVE to see some justification for this comment!

#4 You assume much here, along with the idea that only academic conservatives are pro-gun. But seriously you might be right in the assumption about College Professors, I have little experience there outside my own college time, but you obviously have little experience dealing with actual teachers, to find out what they really think!

#5 Really, so conservatives are only concerned with money, and how much of it they can make? That is really interesting and something that flys in the face of both my own life experience and much more that I have seen and heard from many other teachers. I gave up LOTS of money in the corprate world so that I could do something that I felt would make a difference. I know of many others who have as well. Moral conservatives certainly want to do something of worth (and worth is NOT always a monetary thing). BTW most of the teachers I have known who burned out did so because after trying to help for so long they finally got beat down and felt hopeless!

#6 "Group think"? OMG you really need to meet some actual teachers. A teachers JOB is often to follow the orders of the admin and to teach the curriculum, but as for what teachers thinks, well there are just as many different ideas and how to do things, and what is right and wrong as there is anywhere or with just about any different group!

+1

I work for a fairly large school district (50,000+ students) My teaching position has me working directly with students and providing consult with staff at nineteen campuses K-12.

When asked by another teacher "what are you doing this weekend?" My answer is usually "soccer" or "gun range". More often than not I get a followup question or a comment about their spouse who also shoots. I have yet to meet a teacher who has made any antigun comment.

The county where I live and teach is overwhelmingly conservative and Republican. It most certainly would be a different attitude in the more "urban" areas of Dallas.

As to females and guns- I work in a department that is fifteen women and one other guy. Five of these women currently have their Texas CHL's (that I know of). One is a part time Reserve Deputy in the county where she lives.

Blanket statements like "teachers are liberals & antigun" is just as innaccurate as "Republicans are warmongers" or "welfare moms are black".
Often this perception of an antigun sentiment among teachers comes from statements by teacher unions such as the National Education Association, which doesn't come close to representing all teachers.

 

[chris in va]

The topic of Teachers and Guns comes up every so often on here, but I'll give my .02 anyway.

I'm not a father, but pretty much fill in the role of one for my friend's kid that is in high school. From what I've seen of public education around here, I'm not entirely sure teachers should be carrying around these 'kids'. It just looks to be a bad mix IMO.

Rather, I'd like to see a few gun lockers sprinkled throughout the schools for staff that have been through dedicated training, much like air marshals. Density of people in schools is just too high for the average CC permit holder to deal with, me included. I certainly wouldn't want the responsibility of taking down someone with a rifle and only having a P3AT on hand, with 30+ students standing behind the individual.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for protecting the kids. The school she goes to only has one police officer patrolling the halls that I'm aware of. Seems to me there needs to be a little more firepower on tap in case of another Columbine.

 

[tokonoma]

Shootin' the Breeze - Gun Totin' Teachers

I am a licensed gun owner and a current high school teacher. I will soon apply for a concealed carry permit here in NC (90 day wait--and I do mean 90 full days in this county). I teach in a mobile unit on our campus beside another teacher who has her permit and who shoots at the range frequently. However, neither of us is allowed to bring a weapon within 100 feet of the school.

While I feel adequately prepared mentally and as a marksman to use the weapon if necessary (on dangerous intruders, not to discipline students ).
I think it is a wise decision to exclude weapons. During the course of a school year, we have to break up many petty squabbles and some actual fist fights. In separating some of the larger students involved in a brawl, I worry that one of them might reach for my weapon while I am restraining a student and, as an act of desperation (or because he was embarrassed about getting his butt kicked in public) might remove the gun and shoot the other kid. In fact, anyone in the vicinity would be in danger.

In a case like this, enforcement is best left to the professionals. It would be nice, however, if I could at least leave the weapon hidden in my car should a Columbine type situation ever arise.

 

[rainbowbob]

...I worry that one of them might reach for my weapon...

Let me be the first to ask you the obvious question:

Why would anybody know you were carrying?

 

[TAB]

Let me be the first to ask you the obvious question:

Why would anybody know you were carrying?

A well trained eye can generally tell if some one is carrying.

 

[Rudy Kohn]

As rainbowbod said, the debate has never been about srming teachers, it has been about not disarming them. There is a huge difference, though some cannot see it.

I wholeheartedly agree.

The point here is that people who already carry everywhere else are prevented from doing so in schools. They already deal with keeping their firearm concealed on a daily basis. They already have to handle a firearm every day. They already accept that responsibility, and deal with it.

I've spent a bit of time trying to figure out how to word this without giving offense, but to those who think "guns and schools don't mix," please don't take offense. I'm not trying to attack anyone personally, nor are my comments directed any one poster. That said, here we go.

Forbidding carry in schools is inconsistent and silly. The same gun you hope (since I assume you support shall-issue CCW, you trust) would be used responsibly in any other place, you forbid from the place where defenseless children are? If some nutjob tried to commit mass murder in any other place, you would hope someone had a gun to stop him.

But if some nutjob tries to kill a bunch of unarmed children in a school, you hope none of the teachers was armed? Even if they were licensed to carry everywhere else? Even if one had an easy shot? That doesn't make sense to me.

The licensed carrier is responsible for his bullets. The common shrieks that concealed carriers will end up shooting innocents or each other or being shot by police or their guns will be stolen and used against them are statistically and factually bankrupt. They are emotional weapons typically used by those who don't want anyone carrying ever.

Think about how easy it would be to smuggle a gun into 99% of schools--no metal detectors, no (or very few, sometimes inattentive) guards, no random searches. In order to make schools really gun-free, we'd have to turn them into fortresses (and have all our armed guards work outside).

Licensed concealed carriers are not the problem, and "gun-free zones" only work so long as everyone obeys the law. The fewer places we disarm the law-abiding, the better.

 

[TCB in TN]

+100000000 Rudy!

 

[siglite]

Eric F,

I started to go line by line again. But I think it's probably a waste of time at this point. It is simple to apply your position on teachers to all of society. All of your fear projection for teachers, applies to the rest of us as well. Reading your posts, not just in this thread, I feel I'm very safe in analyzing your position as one which rejects the broad application of the second amendment to our society. In this thread, your application just rings with the "for the chilluns" argument.

I'm surprised to see anyone who buys into this. "OMGZ THE TEACHERZ WILL SHOOTZOR THE KIDS." Bull****. AFAIK, Utah allows teachers to carry. Hasn't happened there a SINGLE TIME that I'm aware of. This fear projection is straight out of Brady or VPC. You can recognize this, or you can deny it. But it is what it is. It's the exact same argument against concealed carry in general. Just in a microcosm, and demonized by the presence of "chilluns."

I suppose we should agree to disagree at this point. My entire point, is that all of the arguments you're using for teachers, apply to us all. I don't think you're willing to see this point.

 

[Eric F]

siglite

Wow...........I have been involved in only 3 threads where teachers were mentioned. this one where I say teachers can carry all they want but I dont want my kid for 40 hours a week around them unless I know them and how they are with guns. But yet you have me all figures out as a fear projectionist. Amazing!

One where I question a teacher who illegaly carries a gun in school now

One on toy guns in school where I say no toys should be in school.

And you draw conclusions that I am anti gunand anti ccw.

You refuse to answer questions but are sure to keep pointing out this "fear projection for teachers". I really dont care if teachers carry or not. I dont care if any one carries. I am pro gun. I just do not care to leave my kid around persons with guns for 40 hours a week to whom I do not know.

Answer this how does this make me anti gun? How does my position relate to the rest of society? I do not leave my child with any one else. So it doesn't there is no link here between teachers and the rest of society.

I can see you are a person that thinks that "if you are not 100% for guns and carry you are an anti no matter what the hold up is" in fact you take it way further than that. You take it to the level of "if you dont leave you kid with a person that carries who you do not know you are anti gun"
I am certian there is a word for you but I just dont know what. Uneducated comes to mind when you put this into it

"OMGZ THE TEACHERZ WILL SHOOTZOR THE KIDS."

I suppose we should agree to disagree at this point

Well atleast you got this right we certianly do disagree but it is not about teachers and guns its how you feel about me.

And I will use your line for you

You can recognize this, or you can deny it.

How am I anti gun because a teacher illegaly carries a gun and talks about it where others can over hear her? I will have you know I went to her and discreetly told her about her misteak to mention this in public. She was very thankful I said somthing to her in fact she is very nice and we are going to go shoot IDPA together next week. But wait I am anti carry and especialy anti teacher carry right? I would gladly have my child taught by her in highschool. But I do not like the fact she commits a felony every day she goes to work.

you need to get a clue and quit adding into others thoughts infact instead of making up short comings for others you should look at your own.

 

[texas_rebel_1980]

i am in college and studying to be a teacher/coach. i have my texas chl. i hope one day that responsible, mature, adult students who are 21 years of age, not members of criminal street gangs, or otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm, who have gone through a rigorous background check, passed a written exam and demonstrated proficiency with a handgun, and have the will to carry a handgun in self defense are able to do so on college campuses. furthermore, i would like to see those of us who have a chl and are willing to carry on a public school campus are allowed to by law. would it save dozens of students from being slaughtered? maybe. could it stop a massacre? absolutely. stopping a school shooting will take the same kind of mental preparedness, will to survive, and commitment to act as the lady in the church, the guy at the bar in nevada. the person with the gun will have to make that decision in a school just like they would in a mall or theater. if i were allowed by law to carry on a school campus you can bet yer posterior i would. i would never lock it in a drawer or file cabinet. it would be on my hip, just like it is when i go anywhere else. not every teacher is fit or willing to carry a handgun, just like the rest of the population. so i say let those of us who are defend ourselves and others.

 

[another okie]

You distorted what I said and then set those distortions up as straw men to be attacked. I made a series of generalizations, which you attempt to rebut by anecdotes. Take a logic course.

 

[GD]

I am a teacher in a school of over 1000 kids. In neighboring schools we have had students bring guns to school and even shoot them (In Goddard a principal was killed and in Wichita a principal was shot at). 90% of the teachers in my school would not carry if allowed to. Since we have had teachers who are ex-cops and people like me who are experienced with firearms, it would be appropriate for some to carry. When a situation occurs in our school, we are to lock our rooms, turn out the lights, and huddle in a corner. Confrontation of a gunman with those conditions would help minimize the chances of a stray hit of a student. Right now, during a school assembly, a gunman would probably have at least 5 minutes to kill as many students as he wanted to before the police arrived. Do I "feel" safe? I "know" I am not safe.

 

[siglite]

I do not leave my child with any one else.

At some point, you will have to. Do you intend to carry a magnetometer around with you everywhere, so you may screen anyone who may be within 400m of your children? Or, perhaps you'll take a more practical route, and just attempt to outlaw (or at least vote for those who oppose) concealed carry?

Exactly how do you plan to deal with the eventuality that your child will be in the presence of strangers? In Virginia no less, where even the poor who've had little or no ninjitsu training can obtain permits.

And as for the "uneducated" comment... the irony's a bit thick. If you fail to recognize such obvious satire...

 

[texas_rebel_1980]

It would be nice, however, if I could at least leave the weapon hidden in my car should a Columbine type situation ever arise.

what good would a gun in your car do? are you implying you would retrieve your gun and go back in to save the kids? what happened to leaving the enforcement to the professionals? the point of a handgun is to survive and get out of the deadly situation, not grab it and run into one. wow.

 

[Eric F]

I do not leave my child with any one else.

At some point, you will have to.

Really How do you figure? You have absolutly no way of knowing how my child care and education is provided. More assumptions on your part. Like I have said repeatedly, I dont care if a person is carring while walking by or hanging out in the neighbors yard or my yard for that matter. That does not mean they are in the care of my kid. You have an incredibly thick head that is armor to reason! When my kid is old enough to decide for herself then so be it. But until then I know the person in care of my child. End of discussion!

attempt to outlaw (or at least vote for those who oppose) concealed carry?

again more assumptions on your part!

 

[GEM]

Anyone who posts that teachers should not have the right to carry in schools because teachers are 'socialists' also shouldn't have the right to carry because said poster is a moron!



Where the BOR, does it say that your politics proscribe your basic human rights?

Many Brady Bunch Poster Children heard from here. Would you prefer an armed 'socialist or liberal' teacher in your kids classroom when Mr. KY Jelly pedophile shows up?

Reading all these response, I just conclude we are seeing hatred of teachers for some personal failure or crackpot politics.

 

[siglite]

Really How do you figure? You have absolutly no way of knowing how my child care and education is provided. More assumptions on your part.

Because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that you do not sequester your children from all of society all of the time. Though, I suppose it's possible you live on a self-sustaining compound, remote, and isolated from the evil gun carrying world.

The common shrieks that concealed carriers will end up shooting innocents or each other or being shot by police or their guns will be stolen and used against them are statistically and factually bankrupt. They are emotional weapons typically used by those who don't want anyone carrying ever.

This is the point I've been trying to make to Eric F, which he absolutely refuses to recognize.

 

[Eric F]

So you are saying you would drop your kid off to a daycare with folks you dont know just because they have guns right?

I fail to understand how many times I have to say I suport ccw and gun ownership to you. why dont you get that gun ownership and who watches my child has little to do with each other. Its more an issue of what kind of person watches my child.

I guess if you dont care for your your childs safety around guns your pro gun and if you do care for your childs safety around guns you are an anti.

The common shrieks that concealed carriers will end up shooting innocents or each other or being shot by police or their guns will be stolen and used against them are statistically and factually bankrupt

But what about the person who owns a gun and it ends up in the wrong hands and not used against the owner but against others........has happened plenty look at all the people arested with stolen guns, look at every single accidental gun death where a child shot them selves ot others. It does hapen.

this makes me no more a fear projectionist as the same person who makes their child wear a seatbelt because its safe and its the law.

 

[antsi]

so if its god given why is 90% of the worlds population restriced from doing so?

In the history of the world, there are very few governments that have been based on the rule of law and respect for civil liberties. In most countries in the world today, you are not safe criticizing the government. Most people in the world today do not enjoy freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, or any other of the freedoms are supposed to be respected in the USA.

I would not want to base my judgements about what are basic rights and what are not on what the majority of governments do, because the majority of governments are tyrannical and oppressive to at least some degree.

According to your theory of right and wrong, whatever the majority of governments do is okay. That is a very low standard of respect for liberty.