If you were an employer, and wanted to codify a workplace ccw policy ...

[JesseL]

30 cal slob:

Would you worry in a multi-story bulding about the guy on the floor above you walking around with his weapon in a standard belt holster?

If I was an employer I wouldn't give a damn as long as the four rules are observed.

FWIW I carry at work every day, loaded chamber, with several coworkers (including the owner / my boss) aware of it. Nobody cares. Today I've got the Romanian AK that I just finished building, leaning in the corner behind my desk. Nobody got upset.

 

[Dravur]

I work from home....

and have a Glock 19 sitting on my desk...

Now that is a good gun policy

 

[ilbob]

A few comments.

I vote for no prohibition against leaving guns (or anything else) in a vehicle in the parking lot. In fact, I think it should be something that is just not covered. If something is not specifically prohibited,...

I would not have a gun policy at all. I would have a "you can be disciplined for violation of any law" rule.

Many work environments are not good choices for carrying a holstered handgun on your hip.

If you have a rule that requires someone to handle a firearm, such as to unload it, you have created a situation where YOU are responsible if something goes wrong.

 

[30 cal slob]

Would you worry in a multi-story bulding about the guy on the floor above you walking around with his weapon in a standard belt holster?

Yes, I do. I've thought of that one. Bullets go through the darndest things. Hence the Condition 3 restriction proposal.

Now, I KNOW that ND's are largely the result of messing around with an unholstered gun.

But,

1) The four laws of safe gun handling apply even when your gun is holstered, right?

2) Yes, I know muzzle conflict is going to be unavoidable in a work situation, but at the same time I'm not comfortable having a muzzle pointing at me.

3) IIRC, pointing the muzzle of a firearm, loaded or not, at a person (however unintentionally) CAN BE A CRIME in certain jurisdictions. The laws don't specify while it's in your hand or in a holster.

Is my thinking too rigid here?

Why doesn't Israeli carry make sense safety-wise in WHILE AT WORK?

Put it this way: if you had the choice of not being allowed to carry at all vs. being permitted to carry, but with certain restrictions (condition 3), wouldn't the latter be preferable?

 

[JesseL]

It's my understanding that rule two only applies when the weapon is being handled.

When a gun is holstered or laying on a table it is essentially inert and no threat. If you left a gun sitting on a table, would you worry about walking in front of it? If so, you may have a nervous breakdown visiting a gun show.

In my opinion a pistol can't be "pointed" unless it is actually being held in your hand.

 

[Amish_Bill]

The Israeli answer is appropriate... IF you have large numbers of weapons being issued to large numbers of kids. It makes no sense when applied to adults with at least a modicum of training and responsibility.

 

[Steelslinger]

The Israeli method works, why? Because that is how they train all the time. You can carry a gun in basically any condition you'd like, as long as that is how you always carry and train with it.

I guess what I am getting at is, Training. Everyone trains differently, therefore, carry differently, and as such, to have a rule that affects how a persons carries their firearm, is dangerous. This does not apply to professions that require you to carry, as most of them will train you to carry the way they want you to.

 

[Gordon Fink]

Many work environments are not good choices for carrying a holstered handgun on your hip.

Out of curiosity, which would these be?

~G. Fink

 

[Steelslinger]

Welding/Metal Fabrication.

I would not carry during work. Electric Arcs, heat and gunpowder do not mix well.

 

[Justin]

"Some things in here do not react well to bullets."


I'd simply defer to the law. Some throwaway statement to the effect of "Employees are expected to abide by the law with regard to a firearm on company premises."

 

[wjustinen]

Include in personnel manual

This is a gun friendly environment. Violation of the following rules is not acceptable:

Rule I: All Guns Are Always Loaded

Rule II: Never Let The Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy

Rule III: Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target

Rule IV: Be Sure Of Your Target

Nuff said.

 

[JJY]

I own/run a small firm. Unwritten rules are: (1) keep concealed, (2) follow the law, (i.e., don't shoot anyone who does not deserve it).

 

[Justin]

Is my thinking too rigid here?

Yes. The four rules exist as a way to outline safe gun handling.
A CCW in a holster is not being handled, and the odds that any modern-made pistol would simply discharge in the holster all on its own are infinitesimally small.

There's also the doctrine of competing harms.

But I would scoff at any workplace that would require Israeli carry.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

an employer who respects your RKBA could:

1) require that all handguns be carried CONCEALED

An employer who respects my right to carry won't tell me how I must carry

2) require that all handguns be ON THE EMPLOYEE'S PERSON AT ALL TIMES (not in purse or bag, etc) or otherwise locked up in car.

Ummm ~~~~ ...

3) require that employees carry their semis in condition 3 (no round in the chamber but loaded mag ok) and revolvers with hammer down on empty cylinder.

An employer who respects my right to carry won't tell me how I must carry.

4) employee furnishes buckets of sand or other ballistic backstop in a safe area for employees to unload prior to entering the office and cock'nlock after leaving the office.

An employer who respects my RKBA would not think of asking me to UNload at the workplace, since my reason for carrying is obviously to protect myself at the workplace.

 

[saspic]

Those other sets of rules are cool for mom and pop businesses, but liability is the $64 million question for anything larger. If it was up to me, I would tolerate concealed carry, but cover my butt thusly...

1. The illegal possesion of weapons is grounds for immediate dismissal.
2. Brandishing a firearm is grounds for immediate dismissal.
3. Discharging a firearm on company property is grounds for immediate dismissal.
4. Assaulting another person is grounds for immediate dismissal or other disciplinary action.

I think they are mostly self explanatory as far as employee malfeasance, but #4 is also important even in a justifiable shooting scenario.

e.g. Someone starts strangling babies while shooting a full auto rifle in all directions at your place of business. An employee pulls out a revolver and shoots him in the leg. He falls down and loses consciousness. He survives and is convicted of all manner of felonies. Your guy is a hero, right?

Absolutely. But, the instigator and his family sue the guy for shooting him, and sue you for a ridiculous sum of money because you condoned him carrying. Is this fair? No. Could it happen? Certainly. With #4 of my list, the hero technically broke company policy. Suspend him for a day or two and tell him not to go around shooting people. Now you have some degree of protection from lawsuits.

You might say, "Ah, but you didn't prohibit carrying, so you're still culpable." Well, if businesses were required to ensure a weapons free environment, every dry cleaner, pizza place, and beauty salon would be required to have metal detectors and security at the entrance.

I think this is reasonable set of rules to allow employees to defend themselves, protect you from frivolous liability lawsuits, and give yourself options in the case of an employee that exhibits unsafe weapons practices without incurring wrongful termination suits.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Sorry - I thought this software didn't allow duplicate posts

 

[Aguila Blanca]

consider this not so hypothetical situation:

i'm wearing thunderwear. pistol with round in the chamber.

i'm sitting down. barrel of loaded pistol is now parallel to the ground.

i settle into my chair. without paying too much attention, muzzle of said pistol is pointing straight at the offce next door, where you happen to be sitting.

muzzle of my loaded (but safely holstered in my glock strap) gun is pointed right at YOU.

would you have a problem with this?

Now consider this not so hypothetical situation:

I'm wearing a horizontal carry shoulder rig under a sports jacket, with a 1911 in Condition 1 under my left arm.

I'm walking down the sidewalk at lunch hour. The barrel of the loaded pistol is now parallel to the ground.

I turn the corner ahead of you. Since you are walking behind me, the muzzle of said pistol is pointing straight at you as you walk.

The muzzle of my loaded (but safely holstered in my Galco shoulder rig) gun is pointed right at YOU.

Would you have a problem with this?

 

[akodo]

Okay. my local gun shop has an L shaped counter, if you are standing at a certain spot in the store, guns along one of the halves of that L are pointed right at you

I personally don't have a problem with that.

When I open up the rear door to my car to retreive my range bag contianing my gun, I have a 50/50 chance of my gun being pointed at me.

I personally don't have a problem with that.

When I think 'Don't point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy' I think human being with a hand on the gun (and possibly a finger near maybe even ON the trigger)

I don't worry about some guy with thunderwear pointing his thunder at me.




but even then, what is with the 2nd half of rule 3, about revolvers having to have an empty round under the hammer? Modern revolvers in good repair don't have that issue, and if anything, the risk comes from the hammer going partially back, rotating the next cylinder inline and dropping on THAT cartridge.


I would suggest the following policy

1. To carry at the office, you MUST have your state issued permit.
(because really, if the boss says it is okay, you can carry concealed without a permit at your business)
2.Your gun must be in good working order
3.Your gun must be kept on your person at all times, or you must make arrangements with management for other security arrangments (if as guy wants one of those fingercombo boxes under his desk, okay, if a guy wants a lockbox in his trunk, okay, etc etc)
4.Your gun must be carried in a sturdy holster of good quality, and if the holster is attached to the belt, it must also be sturdy.
(no jamming the gun down the back of your pants)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

e.g. Someone starts strangling babies while shooting a full auto rifle in all directions at your place of business. An employee pulls out a revolver and shoots him in the leg. He falls down and loses consciousness. He survives and is convicted of all manner of felonies. Your guy is a hero, right?

Absolutely. But, the instigator and his family sue the guy for shooting him, and sue you for a ridiculous sum of money because you condoned him carrying. Is this fair? No. Could it happen? Certainly. With #4 of my list, the hero technically broke company policy. Suspend him for a day or two and tell him not to go around shooting people. Now you have some degree of protection from lawsuits.

Not for rule # 4 he didn't. Unless your state has some VERY strange self-defense laws, the shooting you just described would be a lawful shoot in defense of a third party, not an assault.

You might get him for #3, though.

 

[sevesteen]

1. Guns must be carried on the person, appropriately concealed and holstered at all times in a properly fitting quality holster covering the trigger.

2. Guns may not be removed from their holster or exposed at any time, except to place the gun in approved storage if provided.

3. All laws must be followed, and only those who are legally allowed to carry concealed outside the workplace may carry at work.

4. Employees on disciplinary probation may not carry.

I would absolutely not require condition 3 carry or anything else that will require gun handling at work, because that would greatly increase the likelihood of a negligent discharge. The gun handling rules are for when guns are being handled, and do not apply to a properly holstered gun that is not being handled.

 

[stevelyn]

Rules 1 and 2 are okay.

I disagree with 3 and 4.

An empty chamber in a revolver serves no purpose. An empty chamber in a semi-auto while it sounds good is far more of a hazard than a loaded chamber.

I've never seen or heard of a pistol firing while it was riding in a holster. All NDs have occurred when the person was figiting with their gun either loading or unloading while suffering a simultaneous brainphart.

 

[Finch]

If I were an employer, this would be my policy regarding carrying in the work place:

1.) The employee must abide by all local and federal laws.

2.) Don't ask, don't tell.

 

[ctdonath]

Is my thinking too rigid here?

Yes. You're too wrapped up with the "make it safe" notion to consider that the best way to keep a gun "safe" is don't mess with it! A gun not handled won't, save for the most extreme circumstances, go off. Leave it in the holster, and nothing will happen.

Consider this bit of reporting from Iraq:
At the chow hall, Ugandan security guards (who don't speak English) check to ensure holstered pistols (which are all in storage-mode anyway) have the decocker (the call it a 'safety') down. There is a clearing barrel beside the entrance, but one is no longer mandated to 'clear' weapons upon entering. Such 'clearing' used to be a requirement, but there were so many NDs, the more-or-less continuous noise disturbed diners! In addition, since such NDs automatically give rise to Article 15 sanctions, too many troopers, after experiencing an ND, would simply drop their pistol and run away. Embarrassing!
This is a common report: wherever people are required to "make weapons safe" frequently, accidental discharges happen frequently.

Better rule: Don't mess with your gun without good reason to. BTW: "at work" isn't a good reason to; just leave the thing alone.

Why doesn't Israeli carry make sense safety-wise in WHILE AT WORK?

It doesn't make any more or less sense than carrying in Condition 1. You'll be safest when you carry the way you practiced to carry, and don't go fumbling with switching it to/from unfamiliar states. Israeli carry "works" insofar as those who do it are practiced to automatically rack the slide upon drawing.

So long as the gun is in a holster, and left there, it's safe. Even horizontal Thunderwear or shoulder rigs are safe - so long as nothing touches the trigger. It's ok. Those forms of carry are not uncommon, and there are no recorded problems with them.

Put it this way: if you had the choice of not being allowed to carry at all vs. being permitted to carry, but with certain restrictions (condition 3), wouldn't the latter be preferable?

False choice. Obviously we'd prefer the latter, but that it's the only favorable alternative shows that whoever is limiting the choice to those options still doesn't understand gun safety.

Best option per thread's lead question:
Illegal weapons are prohibited.
Leave it at that to keep the insurance agent happy.
If you really need more:
In recognizing the employee's right to self-defense, legal weapons are allowed but must remain holstered at all times.

Summary, as some wag put it long ago: keep yer booger hook off the bang switch.

 

[Firethorn]

I have to agree with most of the others here. Rule 3 is actually far more likely to cause a ND than prevent one.

For example, with my carry piece I normally rack the slide twice a week, once to remove the chambered round and once to chamber a round after the cleaning session. I don't even unload it when I get home, therefore it's loaded when I pick it up in the morning. The gun's normal state is loaded, condition 1.

At your work I would be operating the action of the gun eight times as often, usually just before I entered and when I leave. That's more chances for a mistake.

Like the others have said, the biggest chance of a ND is when you're messing with the firearm. Therefore, one of your goals should be lowering the handling of the weapons, which means no wierd requirements for the carry state.

edit: After, not for, I ain't suicidal. Oh yeah, and this is discounting range sessions.

 

[ilbob]

Many work environments are not good choices for carrying a holstered handgun on your hip.

Out of curiosity, which would these be?

Anyone who has to wear fall protection for one.

People who carry a lot of tools in a tool belt for another.

Some places ban things like matches, just because the tiny chance of you lighting a match could result in a devastating consequence.

It would not make it impossible to carry, just not as easy as you might think.