Stupid employer policy

[Andrew Rothman]

The good new is this: I got a job.

The bad news is in the employee handbook (with my footnotes):

Workplace Violence Prevention – Concealed Handguns(0)

The Minnesota Citizens’ Prevention(1) Protection Act of 2003, commonly(2) known as the Conceal and Carry Law, allows permit holders(3) to carry a pistol on his/her person, on or about his/her clothes, in a motor vehicle, snowmobile or boat, or in a public place. It also includes private property that is regularly and frequently open to the public, which includes most businesses. The Act provides that both public and private employers may establish policies that restrict employees, including permit holders, from carrying and possessing firearms while acting in the course of cope(4) of employment.

[This employer] prohibits a(5) permit holder and others from bringing firearms into our premises, or while engaging in company business off site, specifically at the client site(6). The Company reserves the right to search and inspect property and persons while on company premises, or while engaged in company business off premises. Any violation of their policy will result in discipline, up to and including immediate termination of employment.

Employees who are aware of policy violations, or who receive threats of violence while on company premises, or while engaged in company business off premises, should promptly report he violations or threats to Human Resources of Company Management.

(0) What does workplace violence prevention have to do with legal carry?
(1) That's Personal Protection Act, dummy. And anyhow, it's been struck down by activist judges, so none of its provisions is valid.
(2) And incorrectly. There is no requirement to conceal.
(3) Singular/plural agreement?
(4) course of cope? Whataheck is that?
(5) Oh, just one permit holder? Who? Certainly not me!
(6) Stupid policy aside, does this sentence even resemble English?

It's reassuring, I guess, that a complete lack of controlled access and unarmed security guys will keep me safe.

 

[Standing Wolf]

What does workplace violence prevention have to do with legal carry?

Nothing, of course. Your employer is practicing moral and intellectual cowardice, as well as plain old-fashioned anti-Second Amendment bigotry.

Personally, I figure lives are harder to replace than jobs.

 

[P95Carry]

Good news - almost!!! I am glad for you but - oh my - this ''stuff' does not sit well.

 

[Husker1911]

I speak from only a certain amount of experience. You see, I live in Nebraska, one of four states with NO provision for ccw. NE does have an affirmative defense clause, a perhaps unconstitutional provision. It seems once I'm arrested, when I prove it was necessary to be carrying, I'll be innocent. That is, they'll arrest me first, then allow me to prove myself innocent.

I believe in the now sadly neglected American principal of caring for myself, whenever possible. I support most law enforcement endeavors. I have the keys and alarm code to a store. It seems to me I would be negligent if I didn't carry. Should I be forced to open the door, I'm a liability after the fact. And would you rather the criminals have access to my business?

Still, if I encounter a cop in the metro area I live in who doesn't know me, or I can't convince my need will, in his eyes rightfully, haul me downtown for the night. It seems to me I'm presumed guilty, that I must prove my innocence. An injustice in America. Your humble correspondent in Nebraska, Dave.

 

[Hardware]

Matt, I can relate. The client my current employer has me working at has badged security access at every external door. A badge is even required to get into the computer center I work in. Of course EVERY single door has a full sized pane of clear glass in it and the computer center has a whole wall of glass.

Oh yeah, that will keep the disgruntled former employees and homicide-minded ex-spouses out.

 

[mountainclmbr]

It seems to me that any workplace violence that could have (even remotely)been stopped by a (company directed) disarmed CCW holder would, and should result in the bankruptcy of the company and arrest of company officers for aiding and abetting the BG's. Empowerment of BG's seems to be big with the left wingers. I suppose it makes everyone depend on government for protection. I personally have divested myself of any mutual funds through 20th Century Investors for their ($20 I think) contribution to the anti-CCW effort in Missouri years ago. They lost my business for ever. I don't do business with any other companies that I find are anti 2A either. Any pro 2A mutual funds out there?

 

[Walter]

" (3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area. "

That's what the Texas statute says about "CCL" guns, in cars, in parking lots.

I just started a new job back in January too, and the handbook they gave
me has passages that read just about like yours. My handbook states that refusal to allow a search of my vehicle would constitute grounds for firing.
Oh, well. The day they tell me they want to search my vehicle will be the
day I load my stuff and leave.

I really think the people who write these handbooks are lawyers who are trying to stop lawsuits before they happen. It's the "CYA" syndrome.
I value my job, but I value my life more, and the place I work now is in
a well-known high-crime area. I keep my handgun out of sight, always,
at the workplace, and I don't ever mention to anyone that I carry. I
figure, if I give them no reason to suspect I carry, they won't bother
with me. But, if they do, and they press the issue, I'll just leave.

Then I'll call the AG office in Austin to see if I can file charges against the company for illegal termination. (Probably not). Then I'll call the NRA
to see who I can find to sue the pants off the company. Maybe nobody,
but it's worth a shot.

My bottom line is, basically, I am ignoring their handbook. I have a CCL,
and I use it. I won't flaunt it around the workplace, but I won't leave
home without it.

Walter

 

[rbernie]

Statements like this have been in almost every employee handbook I've ever been given by any employer over the last twenty years or so. Of course, my current employer's facility security is two (nice, but unarmed) gals who specialize in issuing visitor badges and flirting with the male staff. Encouraging stuff....

I guess the message here is that they wanna be able to show in a court of law that they didn't cultivate an atmosphere that tolerated firearms in the workplace - just in case anyone does snap on-the-job and the familymembers of the deceased decide to sue the employer. <shrug> Most folks that I know ignore it, so long as they don't search the bags or cars regularly.

 

[Standing Wolf]

So many lawyers! So few opportunities to spew multitudinous paragraphs of meaningless gibberish just in case the commoners dare to behave uproariously and the survivors call in more lawyers!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Last year, after a protracted period of "less than full employment," I took a new job. On the first day the manager handed me an Employee Handbook, with instructions to take it home, read it, and sign and return the ackowledgment page.

Along about Day 4 the manager asked where the signed acknowledgment page was. On Day 5 I submitted my resignation. The place was a retail establishment in a strip mall on the fringe of a very run-down section of what is a generally overall run-down city. Near the mall is a hospital and a shelter, both located in a BAD neighborhood. (So bad, if fact, that when I mentioned to a local my intention of driving through the neighborhood to get to the nearby Home Depot -- at noon -- I was advised to get on the highway and take the longer but "safe" route.) There is a LOT of crime in this mall, and the store I was hired by happened to be the last business to close at night ... by a considerable margin.

And they expected me to waive my right to self-defense even when they assigned me to the closing shift in a high crime area. The manager was sypathetic (at least she said she was, who knows for sure) but "Corporate" wasn't budging. So I quit.

 

[Deavis]

My handbook states that refusal to allow a search of my vehicle would constitute grounds for firing. Oh, well. The day they tell me they want to search my vehicle will be the day I load my stuff and leave.

I respect my employer's right to forbid weapons inside their property but I agree with the Texas law and think that what is in my parked car is my business. I've got the same clause and if they are interested in searching, then they are probably already looking to fire me. In that case, they can have the finger located between my trigger finger and ring finger. Better to quit and cite irreconcilable differences on your resume than get fired for exercising your right to have a weapon for self-defense.

 

[Tom Servo]

My handbook states that refusal to allow a search of my vehicle would constitute grounds for firing

Hm. Here in Georgia that could constitute grounds for a lawsuit. Here, my car is an extension of my home. One cannot be searched any more easily than the other, and without LEO probable-cause, not without a court order.

I worked for a company that prohibited on-site carry, and also prohibited keeping firearms in personal cars on property. This is GEORGIA. Everyone has a gun in their car. Turns out a guy was fired when his supervisor found out he had one. He sued sucessfully, since a) the policy was too "intrusive" and b) it couldn't be proven that the company was enforcing it unilaterally, ie. they weren't doing random searches of everyone's cars.

Suing an employer is a PITA, and it can wreck your job situation for awhile, so my advice would be "don't ask, don't tell" until it came down to the wire. Then I'd just walk. Wish I could be more helpful.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Long before legal concealed carry.
I worked a week on and a week off.
At work I lived in company housing.
Drove 400+ miles to work and always had a pistol.
When I got to work, I locked the pistol in a foot locker I left in the apartment all the time.

The company came out with one of those forms everyone had to sign. No booze, illegal drugs, firearms allowed in any company housing, vehicles or on company property.

I told my boss I wasn't signing it.
He said scratch out firearms and sign it.

He and many others also carried a pistol to work.

 

[Tharg]

Bah - the day the company policy stops you from getting hurt is the day the handbook stops the bullet for you.

Its funny that its basically an end round routine to avoid lawsuits.

Since america has no common sense they have to do this.

Why?

Because while the criminal who walks in and blows away eight co-workers and then himself has no reason to live, and could care less about the company hand book. They Guy who does the same thing but had a CHL or whatnot(that was not banned from the workplace by said BS workplace violence "prevention" policy)... in the same reference of mind - is worth a LOT of money to families who get a slew of lawyers asking for them to sue said company.... mind you - the minute the news hits....unless the company has said BS workplace prevention policy in place.

(I got my 1st(and only) DWI almost 5 years ago... and i got at LEAST 10 letters in the mail from lawyers asking to defend me... imagine lawyers who see lawsuit cash in thier eyes...)

SO - since we don't have judges or jury's that will see an idiot, note an idiot, and hear an idiot and then say he's right... this is how it goes.

Its just like any number of other BS lawsuits pushed by BS lawyers who think they can make a buck by getting normal (idiotic?) people who think the lawyer is right and they can make a buck... (even tho there is no reason to think idiot X was "in cahoots" w/ the company(!) to kill thier wife/hubby/son/daughter/etc.... ) Its about money... and until people act w/ common sense... we will continue to be ruled by the worst common denominator... and that blows.

aka - its just gonna get worse. =(

J/Tharg!

 

[sturmruger]

My work has the same policy. It is amazing how easy it is to follow the "don't ask don't tell policy"

 

[Daemon688]

You could ignore the policy, but it becomes difficult (UPS) where you have to go through security and a metal detector before you can enter the building. Is there a single workplace out there that doesn't have a "no weapons" rule?

 

[Zundfolge]

I'm left with two thoughts.

1) Company Policy is NOT Law (unless you work for the gvt.)
2) Concealed means concealed.

 

[Mark13]

You all need to be more realistic. Company policies are to cover their butts. They don't care about philosophy or rights, they just want to make a profit. In most states, employers can fire you for any reason or no reason.

They can make whatever policies they want, and remember, they are providing you with a job. If you get caught carrying then you will have to find a new job. It's that simple.

If your employer doesn't search vehicles, or people, and they don't have a metal detector, then as long as you feign ignorance about anything gun related the chance that you will ever be discovered is almost zero.

So if this is really important to you then keep your mouth shut about all things gun related and you can do what you want.

 

[junyo]

My boss stopped enforcing our no weapon policy after some other supervisors and myself brought weapons through security unconcealed without being challenged as an object lesson (One guy had one of those nickel plated marine shotguns in plain view on the seat of his pickup - if you don't notice that, you won't notice anything). Brought the boss outside, showed him and said "Ever fire anyone that didn't take it too well?"

He fired the security company and stopped asking about bulges.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I've decided not to sweat it. It's a safe neighborhood, and a big building.

...and I've managed to carry undetected for two years already...

 

[gbran]

I'm lucky

Not only does my employer allow carry (quietly) , I've helped others at work get their CCW's....... including the female owner.

 

[mmike87]

My employer cannot search my car - I park on a public street downtown.

 

[tyme]

(4) I think "course of cope" is supposed to be "course or scope."

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Of course it is. I just can't believe the sloppiness of this quasi-legal policy document.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

Is there a single workplace out there that doesn't have a "no weapons" rule?

Yep. My company's policy is "no unauthorized weapons". When I asked how to get authorized, they asked to see my badge or CCW, made sure I had my own liability insurance, and authorized me.

I didn't mention that I'd already been carrying concealed since the day I started.

It's basically been the same for the last two employers -- though at one I was actually the head of security and emergency response, presumably because I knew how to run an AED and put on bandaids.