If you were going to buy a big bore lever action......

[Jessesky]

I don't think that anyone can argue that a bolt action is simpler and more reliable than a lever action. Because of the tubular magazine and carrier arrangement, which is largely inaccessible in the receiver, a lever action jam can be difficult to clear. So I don't think that you would want to rely on one when hunting dangerous game.
On the other hand, if your tube-fed lever gun works well and you have tuned out any quirks, then it's perfectly fine for most hunting situations that aren't long range.
And, a clip fed BLR or Henry chambers the more effective cartridges that some bolt actions use, mounts a scope well, and is accurate, simple, and reliable.

The reason you mentioned about clearing jams in a lever gun is a big factor in reliability I prefer not to overlook. so on that alone I’d say is enough to claim bolt actions are simpler. The other is in a bolt action, the bolt rotates and cams off the lugs which aids in extraction with a lot of force. Enough to literally rip the case head off if it’s stuck enough. Kind of like using a vise instead of linear lever movement . If you’ve ever had a stuck case in a lever action it’s not so easy to get to either. My old marlin 336 has some receiver scratches from a screwdriver shaft trying to pry a 30-30 case out of the chamber. This was before I was wise enough to use a brass rod and was new to firearms. The other as well is tool-less takedown. Most leverguns I know of require at least a screwdriver to take down, while most bolt guns don’t require any tools to even strip the bolt completely.

On a personal preference note, I find for extraction I can provide much more force pulling a bolt than pushing. Since lever guns extract on the forward stoke pushing on the knuckles.

So between the two, you say one you wouldn’t hunt dangerous game with. wouldn’t you say that is enough to say one has an edge over the other?

 

[Obturation]

Retirement savings is more important to me than having enough guns to invade Bolivia. So one or teo more, maybe.

good luck. Ive tried that before... and failed miserably.

 

[someguy2800]

Lever actions generally share something in common with true dangerous game rifles like English double rifles. They shoot relatively low pressure rounds that don't get stuck in the chamber in the first place. I've personally never had a jam up of any kind with a lever action. I personally would not let reliability sway me in either direction. Lever actions are more complex but they are pretty well developed.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

good luck. Ive tried that before... and failed miserably.

One or two more lever guns. Not guns in general. Yes, I know I'd be fooling myself thinking I'm buying two more guns and that's it.

I already have too many handguns. Though, that's a bit of an oxymoron.

I personally would not let reliability sway me in either direction. Lever actions are more complex but they are pretty well developed.

I also maintain my guns pretty meticulously. They get cleaned every time I shoot them, and they always get function checked before use in the field. So the chances of a malfunction are somewhat reduced. That's not to say something can't still go wrong, but the point is moot anyway.

 

[Old Stumpy]

On a personal preference note, I find for extraction I can provide much more force pulling a bolt than pushing. Since lever guns extract on the forward stoke pushing on the knuckles.

So between the two, you say one you wouldn’t hunt dangerous game with. wouldn’t you say that is enough to say one has an edge over the other?

Certainly the primary extraction feature of bolt actions, and in particular the military-type Mauser claw extractor, is superior to any lever or pump action rifle. The Mauser extractor doesn't rotate with the bolt. It just pulls straight back while the bolt lugs cam the case loose. The leverage gained by the bolt handle amplifies the force of primary extraction, breaking a stuck case free much more easily.
However, some modern bolt actions (and older ones) have a tiny extractor claw fitted into the bolt face which rotates with the bolt. These are less reliable because they would scrape along the case rim during primary extraction of a stuck case, and might tear through the rim, or break if the case is really stuck.
Still, bolt actions have a mechanical advantage during primary extraction, while lever actions have none.
It's why the military adopted the Mauser bolt action system overwhelmingly, considering the dirty and muddy battlefield conditions.
So yes, it's also why you would want a bolt action with a Mauser extractor for hunting dangerous game, as African hunters have always known.
Why take risks if hunting grizzly, even if they seem unlikely to occur?

However, for deer, elk, moose, and other game, the unlikely possibility of a stuck case isn't a consideration. If you use a rifle that you know is reliable, keep it lubed and clean, and you cycle the ammunition that you will actually use through the action before you hunt, then it doesn't matter if you use a lever action. It's going to work just fine.
Also, the cartridges used in an 1894 Winchester, 336 Marlin, 1894 Marlin, or a Henry Big Boy are lower pressure cartridges that are unlikely to stick in the chamber, compared to the high pressure cartridges that most bolt actions use.
The .30-30, .32 Special, and .35 Remington were all designed with tapered cases that would release easily without primary extraction.
And the .357 magnum, .44-40, .44 magnum, and .45-70 are all thin-walled lower pressure cartridges that are very unlikely to stick at all.

So while the bolt action enjoys a theoretical edge over lever actions in reliability, it really doesn't matter in a practical sense for most hunting.

 

[Olon]

Thanks all for the good advice. Please keep it coming and let the input flow.

I’m leaning toward the 44 mag because I plan to buy a 44 magnum revolver at some point.

But......... 45-70

I had the same reasoning when I bought my .357. I REALLY wanted a 45/70. Something about chunking a massive piece of lead that pulverizes anything in the way. That said, I wanted to set myself up for getting a .357 revolver. Our collections are at different stages, though. I just got my first lever action, and I don't yet have a cartridge revolver.

Maybe evaluate which will be the best advancement to your collection paired with how important that is to you. Then how much fun each will be paired with how important that is. Then you can set them side by side and make a good call; you won't question your reasoning later then.

 

[Jessesky]

Certainly the primary extraction feature of bolt actions, and in particular the military-type Mauser claw extractor, is superior to any lever or pump action rifle. The Mauser extractor doesn't rotate with the bolt. It just pulls straight back while the bolt lugs cam the case loose. The leverage gained by the bolt handle amplifies the force of primary extraction, breaking a stuck case free much more easily.
However, some modern bolt actions (and older ones) have a tiny extractor claw fitted into the bolt face which rotates with the bolt. These are less reliable because they would scrape along the case rim during primary extraction of a stuck case, and might tear through the rim, or break if the case is really stuck.
Still, bolt actions have a mechanical advantage during primary extraction, while lever actions have none.
It's why the military adopted the Mauser bolt action system overwhelmingly, considering the dirty and muddy battlefield conditions.
So yes, it's also why you would want a bolt action with a Mauser extractor for hunting dangerous game, as African hunters have always known.
Why take risks if hunting grizzly, even if they seem unlikely to occur?

However, for deer, elk, moose, and other game, the unlikely possibility of a stuck case isn't a consideration. If you use a rifle that you know is reliable, keep it lubed and clean, and you cycle the ammunition that you will actually use through the action before you hunt, then it doesn't matter if you use a lever action. It's going to work just fine.
Also, the cartridges used in an 1894 Winchester, 336 Marlin, 1894 Marlin, or a Henry Big Boy are lower pressure cartridges that are unlikely to stick in the chamber, compared to the high pressure cartridges that most bolt actions use.
The .30-30, .32 Special, and .35 Remington were all designed with tapered cases that would release easily without primary extraction.
And the .357 magnum, .44-40, .44 magnum, and .45-70 are all thin-walled lower pressure cartridges that are very unlikely to stick at all.

So while the bolt action enjoys a theoretical edge over lever actions in reliability, it really doesn't matter in a practical sense for most hunting.

For practical sense for most hunting, sure it doesn’t matter much. But when discussing the optimal tool for once in a lifetime hunts, overnight hunts, or as a general lifeline as the OP mentioned, I like to account these factors. And it’s fun to discuss. As well I have experienced failures to extract in my 336 in 30-30 which is low pressure and tapered and in (albeit outdated design) my cimarron 1873 in 357. I found the notch the extractor needs to fit into to snap over the cartridge rim can get gunned up easily.

 

[d2wing]

30-30. Well proven. It was better than the 45-0 when it was introduced and it still is. I would not trade mine for any other lever gun except a BLR in 308.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I have a Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum that I love to shoot & if I had to choose a rifle for home or camp defense it would be the one. However I believe that if my 1894 were chambered in 357 Magnum it would be just as effective. If you want another lever gun to bridge the gap from where the 357 Mag tops off to a rifle that can bust anything that comes close to harm you the 45/70 will be better than a 44 Magnum.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I found the notch the extractor needs to fit into to snap over the cartridge rim can get gunned up easily.

I haven't noticed this in my Marlin 336 or 1894 Winchesters. They all seemed to work well.
I owned 3 Marlin 1894 carbines and they worked well, but all required some extractor polishing. The extractor in these scrape along the edge of the rim during chambering so the sharp lower corner of the hook has to be radiused slightly and polished to feed smoothly.
I have owned two 1892 replicas.
My Browning B92 in .44 magnum worked perfectly out of the box. A beautiful gun and very accurate with factory ammo.
My Rossi 92 in .44 magnum required much polishing and tuning to function reasonably well. It had shallow rifling and horrible cast bullet accuracy. I never tried it with factory ammo.
I have owned two 1866 Winchester replicas.
My oldest 1866 replica carbine was a really old one Navy Arms in .38 Special that was well worn before I bought it, and worked like a charm.
The second 1866 was a beautiful Uberti short rifle in .45 Colt that would not feed or extract. I discovered that the bolt face had been damaged by being dropped before the rifle had been assembled, deforming the lip that presses on the rim of the cartridge when the extractor presses down on the rim from above. After fixing that, I found that I still needed to bend the extractor a little to weaken it in order that the bolt face would not be forced out of alignment with the chambered cartridge when closing. Those unsupported bolts can be a bit sloppy.
I owned one Navy Arms 1873 carbine replica in .44-40.
It was a disaster. The firing pin portion of the bolt was stiff and the carrier block was improperly shaped to allow .44-40 cartridges to enter it properly from the magazine. After much work I got it to work well. However it shot high, and the carbine rear sight was not adjustable, except for higher elevation, requiring a higher front sight blade be slotted into the base.
The originals were hand-fitted and tuned at the Winchester factory because they had to be.
The Ubertis are beautifully made, inside and out, but they don't function test or tune them much, obviously.

 

[Tommygunn]

..... I owned one Navy Arms 1873 carbine replica in .44-40.
It was a disaster. The firing pin portion of the bolt was stiff and the carrier block was improperly shaped to allow .44-40 cartridges to enter it properly from the magazine. After much work I got it to work well. However it shot high, and the carbine rear sight was not adjustable, except for higher elevation, requiring a higher front sight blade be slotted into the base.
The originals were hand-fitted and tuned at the Winchester factory because they had to be.
The Ubertis are beautifully made, inside and out, but they don't function test or tune them much, obviously.

Huh. I have a Uberti 1873 SRC I bought in 1993 and it worked great out of the box . Uberti is a good manufacturere, but all turn out a few lemons .... you must have Unfortunatly got one.

I also have a .44 magnum Browning 1892; I agree they're great guns. Miroku quality is top notch.

 

[Varminterror]

I’m coming late to the party, been kinda busy this week with work, and doctors - flared an old injury doing front squats Saturday morning and got to enjoy doctors, chiropractors, and physical therapists all wknd.

My family has a bit of a tradition with Marlin 1894 rifles. My grandpa and his brothers, my dad and uncle’s, and their cousins, and me and my cousins all have them. I never really have been a fan of the 30-30 in the 336 for that reason - I can kill deer at the same ranges with 1/2 the powder using a 44 instead of a dirty thirty.

The big disadvantage of the Marlin 1894 (which isn’t a big disadvantage, really), as a “big bore” levergun is the slow twist. A 44mag just begs to be fed 300-340grn pills, but the Marlins typically don’t do well with these. It’s a brilliant deer and elk rifle with 240-270grn bullets, but it could be capable of so much more, if it simply had a 1:20” twist even.

I bought my first 1895 .45-70 in 1999, and have been hooked ever since. I haven’t enjoyed the standard model as much as the Guide Gun and Cowboy models, but they certainly are all fantastic rifles. My wife commandeered one of my 1895GS’s several years ago as her deer rifle, but I do often borrow it back. She bought an 1895 SBL some years after, and once it was featured in the new Jurassic World movie, she had to have a second. They’re fantastic rifles, with opportunity to load as low as a light 44mag, or as high as a light 458win, suitable for any game on the planet in the right hands.

I would be hard pressed to say which one I would keep if I had to choose, but I do know I take the 1895GS 45-70 out of the safe far more often to do work than the 1894.

 

[mdauben]

A 44 mag in either a marlin 1894 or a winchester 1892 are probably the most practical choice, but the 1895G 45-70 sings songs to me. I actually just sold mine to buy this. I fondled one in the store and instantly knew I had to have it.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1895-big bore/model-1895cba

I've had my eye on a Model 1895CB for a while. Pretty much the same gun, with a 26 inch hexagonal barrel. I just prefer the lines of the longer barreled version.

https://www.marlinfirearms.com/lever-action/model-1895-big-bore/model-1895cb

 

[Old Stumpy]

It’s a brilliant deer and elk rifle with 240-270grn bullets, but it could be capable of so much more, if it simply had a 1:20” twist even.

I had a JM 1894 in .44 magnum with Ballard rifling. With moderate hand loads (270 grain Speer JSP with 17 grains of 2400) it shot very well at 100 yards. The manual indicates about 1400 FPS, but it grouped about 2" wide by 4" vertical. An ideal twist would depend on how heavy and how fast the bullet is. 1:20" would work well.
The Henry Big Boy Steel in .45 Colt has a 1:16" twist, which is the same as the twist in a Redhawk .44 magnum revolver. You could certainly load this cartridge and rifle up to .44 magnum velocities with heavy bullets. It's only 7 pounds and has a round barrel. Very nice looking.
As long as you can forgive the tube loading system.

 

[KnightHawk]

Huh. I have a Uberti 1873 SRC I bought in 1993 and it worked great out of the box . Uberti is a good manufacturere, but all turn out a few lemons .... you must have Unfortunatly got one.

I also have a .44 magnum Browning 1892; I agree they're great guns. Miroku quality is top notch.

Love my Browning 92 in 44 mag. It's my go to home defense rifle for 2 and 4 legged critters.

 

[Newtosavage]

Since I hand load, it would be an easy choice. 45-70 without a doubt. A handloader can make it a rabbit gun, a deer gun or a moose/bear gun.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Since I hand load, it would be an easy choice. 45-70 without a doubt. A handloader can make it a rabbit gun, a deer gun or a moose/bear gun.

That's kind of where I'm landing on this.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I have a limited gun budget. Retirement savings is more important to me than having enough guns to invade Bolivia. So one or two more, maybe.

Practicality is a good thing, but never give up on your dreams of conquest. With a few more lever actions, you and a few friends could mount a Winnebago expedition. Launch your assault by breakfast and take control of La Paz by lunch time.

 

[Old Stumpy]

Since I hand load, it would be an easy choice. 45-70 without a doubt. A handloader can make it a rabbit gun, a deer gun or a moose/bear gun.

It is easy to tailor .45-70 loads with various bullet weights and powder charges for deer, elk, moose, and bear.
However in a lever action, you still need to stay close to the 2.55" cartridge overall length for proper functioning.
Practical to do from 300 grain to 405 grain bullets.
For rabbits, you could use a custom 200 grain/.458" bullet mold and load down to 1000 FPS to approximate a .44 Henry.
Not too destructive for rabbits(?). You could load to 1300 FPS for .44-40 ballistics.
But, the short bullet nose would require single loading the cartridge, and the small powder charge would need a filler inside that long case.

.44 magnum is easy to load down to .44-40 with 200-210 grain cast bullets and stay at close to the 1.610" cartridge OAL required, but needs 1250 FPS with the usual 1:38" twist to stabilize the bullets well. But, it can stabilize up to 270 grain bullets well, loaded to 1600+ FPS which will also feed well through the magazine. I don't know about moose, but elk and black bear should be good.

Perhaps .45 Colt in the Henry big Boy Steel is the way to go, because of the versatile 1:16" twist. It will stabilize 220 grain cast bullets down to 900 FPS and feed through the magazine. And, because it has a greater case volume, it can develop the same velocities as .44 magnum with the same weight bullets with less chamber pressure. It will stabilize a 300 grain bullet well, loaded to 1600+ FPS.
The Winchester .45-70 Super-X load for a 300 grain JSP is 1880 FPS, which is obviously more powerful.
But, at brush ranges a 300 grain JSP at 1600 FPS would probably do almost as well.
And, you could use the same load in a Ruger Blackhawk.

But, of course, nothing beats the .45-70 using a 405 grain bullet loaded up to 1800 FPS in a Marlin.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

For rabbits, you could use a custom 200 grain/.458" bullet mold and load down to 1000 FPS to approximate a .44 Henry.
Not too destructive for rabbits(?)

If I want to bunny hunt I'd use my 22lr, or my 357 Henry.

I don't swat flies with a hammer either.

Perhaps .45 Colt in the Henry big Boy Steel is the way to go, because of the versatile 1:16" twist. It will stabilize 220 grain cast bullets down to 900 FPS and feed through the magazine. And, because it has a greater case volume, it can develop the same velocities as .44 magnum with the same weight bullets with less chamber pressure. It will stabilize a 300 grain bullet well, loaded to 1600+ FPS.

So I do not have a 45 Colt revolver and I do not see myself buying one. I shoot a 460 magnum but every time I shoot 45 Colt from it I am disappointed with the accuracy. In fact I had planned on reloading 45 Colt and I'm now contemplating whether or not I even have a reason to. I'd be more inclined to trade my brass to someone for 10mm brass or even trade it in for in store credit at my LGS.

If I was going 45 caliber, I feel 45-70 will be a more appropriate and much harder hitting cartridge for what I want. If I am willing to tolerate less thump for ammo compatibility, then 44 magnum is what I'd want. Hence my original question.

Like I said, buying a Bighorn Armory in 460 magnum would probably be the best option since 395 gr loads are out there, this is meant to be a bush whacking rifle. I'm not whacking any bushes with a $2500 rifle. Maybe if I inherit some money...………...

 

[eastbank]

if you reload the 45-70 doesn,t cost but a few pennies over a 44 mag. 44 mag 300 gr HP-XTP at 1400 fps with 18.4 win 296, 45-70 300gr JHP at 1400 fps with 28.5grs imr4227. same cost primers ,same cost bullets, the powder is where the extra cost will be with 10 grs more powder used in the 45-70 and that's just 10-7000 thousands of a pound.

 

[sabbfan]

I’m in a similar dilemma. I currently use a 357 Henry for deer hunting and it hasn’t let me down yet. But, I also have a desire for something with a little more punch and am debating between the same 44 mag or 45/70. I also currently reload for 44 mag. I’m leaning towards the 45/70 or a 444 since I feel the 44 mag in a lever might be too similar to the 357 I already have. On the other hand 45/70 is a bit overkill for deer. Hence the dilemma!

 

[Armored farmer]

The fact is that there are rumors about Illinois accepting Pistol caliber rifles as legal deer guns. If that does indeed become law, I will be in the market for a .45colt levergun.
I have a 357mag 1884c marlin to make due with until I locate a win 94 SRC or 1866 yellowboy, or similar traditional levergun in .45colt.
the little 1894c is a good shooter, and capable of taking deer within its limits.
As a traditional bow hunter, handgun hunter, muzzloader, hunter, slug hunter, .....I am accustomed to operating within my given limitations.

 

[Old Stumpy]

If I was going 45 caliber, I feel 45-70 will be a more appropriate and much harder hitting cartridge for what I want. If I am willing to tolerate less thump for ammo compatibility, then 44 magnum is what I'd want. Hence my original question.

Like I said, buying a Bighorn Armory in 460 magnum would probably be the best option since 395 gr loads are out there, this is meant to be a bush whacking rifle. I'm not whacking any bushes with a $2500 rifle. Maybe if I inherit some money...………...

I think that you already knew what you wanted before your original post.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think that you already knew what you wanted before your original post.

Reading input helped me settle.

But it was always between 44 or 45-70 really.