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if you worked at a gun shop-loonys.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Axis II, Jul 2, 2017.

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  1. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    I see a lot of frivolous lawsuits relating to consulting business. If refusing a sale, one does open up the gun shop to spurious claims of illegal discrimination or bias (real reason was because they were gay or black or a different religion, etc.) There should perhaps be due care to protect against these lawsuits when refusing sales. Steps like:

    1. Discuss the possibility of refusing the sale with management. Make sure someone writes down the reasons why refusing the sale is being considered: suspicion of drug use, suspicion of straw purchase, suspicion of likely illegal or violent use. Simply document suspicion, not the reasons for the suspicion. Reasons for suspicions can often be portrayed as illegal biases. Try and forget the reasons for the suspicions quickly after the event, and honestly answer "I do not remember" if ever asked about it.

    2. Call BATFE or a local law enforcement agency while considering the sale. Tell them your suspicions and ask for their advice regarding the sale. They will almost always advise against the sale. Your real reason for denying the sale should be following their advice in the specific situation.

    3. Follow up the refusal of the sale with a report to BATFE and/or local law enforcement with as much info as you have as well as with your suspicions. Suspicions that are quickly reported to law enforcement are much harder to portray as an illegal bias. Be sure to only report your suspicions (NOT the reasons why), because the law enforcement will probably document everything you report to them, and if you give reasons for your suspicions, they may later be portrayed by the plaintiff's lawyers as evidence of illegal bias.

    Of course, all these considerations also apply to private sellers who may choose to refuse a sale based on suspicious appearance of behavior.
     
    old lady new shooter and 9MMare like this.
  2. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    You're muddying your argument. I don't think that guy should have been sold any gun. Pointing out the fact they were looking at AR-15s and pistol grip shotguns doesn't have any relevance.
     
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  3. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I know we live in a litigious society, but is it common for this to happen? Sure, I've had customers get mad at refusals and post a review or comment online, but file a lawsuit?
     
  4. Snyper

    Snyper Member

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    Wedding cakes aren't covered by Federal laws nor sold by licensed dealers.

    No reasonable. logical person would refuse a sale based on reasons protected under the Civil Rights act alone. That would be illegal.

    Of course anyone can sue for anything as long as they file the paperwork, so that's always a risk. They would have to prove the reason was one of those listed.

    You can always ask here:
    https://www.atf.gov/contact
    E-Mail questions:
    [email protected]

    E-Mail:
    [email protected]
     
  5. Snyper

    Snyper Member

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    I had a guy one time wanting to look at some small cheap handguns.
    After I showed him a few, he told me he wanted to shoot one of the local LEO's (who happened to be a friend of mine), but he didn't have enough money to buy one.

    I said "No problem" and actually got him to fill out a credit application with his name and address.

    Once we refused to sell gunpowder to a Middle Eastern customer who couldn't tell us anything about what powder he wanted or what he was trying to load. About a week later he was arrested in New York for plotting to bomb the subway (We are in NC).
     
  6. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    They were about $15 dollars back then. I bought one in 67 and was lucky to hit the inside of a barn with it.

    I don't know the legalities of turning down a sale because of gut feeling, but if I thought that they were high, the sale would not go through. Now that marijuana is legal in some states we may see more of this. If they pass the background check it falls on ATF.
     
  7. Berger.Fan222

    Berger.Fan222 Member

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    How many does it take to put the typical LGS out of business? One expensive suit will usually sink the ship of most small businesses.

    Due to our consulting work, we run into lots and lots of the more sue happy people in society, and most of these frivolous suits run into the six figures in expenses just to get them to trial, much less what happens if one loses.

    I'd look into how easy it is for discrimination suits to succeed in your state. If your lawyer is not worried about it, then you shouldn't either. But if your lawyer suggests taking care when to cover your legal butt when refusing sales, I would make the extra effort. How much time and money do my suggested steps really take compared with an expensive lawsuit?
     
  8. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I see nothing wrong with documenting what transpired, but it is not realistic to do it every time you refuse service or deal with an angry customer. I mean your scenario can literally apply to every single interaction with a customer, not just involving guns.
     
  9. tommy.duncan

    tommy.duncan Member

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    I work a gun store. One Sunday I pointed out to a customer he missed 10a. He turned red and started shaking. I pulled the paperwork
    and refused to sell him a firearm.

    He stated " he knows the owner. "

    I told him he could talk to the owner on Monday morning but I would NOT sell him the firearm.

    In Virginia, if their is a problem or the transaction feels hinkey, we can refuse the sale
     
  10. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Wait what? He turned red and started shaking because he forgot to check his ethnicity?
     
  11. tommy.duncan

    tommy.duncan Member

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    Yes, he got pissed when I pointed out him missing 10a. I did not sell him a firearm .

    I also called the owner and explained to him what happened. He said he did not "know" the customer,
    and he would have refused the sale too.
     
  12. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    I agree and I try not to judge as I would not want someone to judge me, especially my right to own a firearm and train my family with one,
    I have a very good friend that is loud and uses lots of foul language at first look someone could judge him in a poor way BUT the truth is he is a great family guy , severed our country and has no criminal history not even a speeding ticket he does not drink or do drugs straight as an arrow and would give his shirt of his back to help someone , but first appearances he is loud and swears like a mad man , we all have the right to the 2nd amendment and should not judge who we dont know or at least I try not to.
     
    jhb likes this.
  13. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    ISTR a specific ruling that even in localities where MEDICAL marijuana (never mind recreational) is legal, a user is still prohibited from purchasing a firearm.
     
  14. TrickyDick

    TrickyDick Member

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    Well, I was 19 when I bought my first gun. M70AB2 Yugoslavian AK underfolder. I walked in, waited until I was asked how they could help me, I pointed to the rifle, and said "I'll take that one."

    To some, this may seem like a problem. Young kid, walks in, wastes no time picking out an AK to buy. Some might be weary of such a quick purchase.

    Back story: Just received half of my sign on bonus after completing AIT, had already been in that LGS looking at rifles I was interested in, weeks, even months before.
    Didn't need to waste time talking to the clerk who was filling in that day.

    Sometimes, things aren't as they appear.
     
    JO JO likes this.
  15. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Infatuation with Lee Harvey?
     
  16. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    Wait...........you yanked the form and cancelled the sale because a customer didn't check a box on 10a?:scrutiny:
    Did you ASK him to give an answer? Did he refuse?All you have to do is tell him 10a needs to be answered to get your gun.
    I ask 'cause that's the silliest damn reason to cancel a sale. Either you're leaving out some information or you don't now what the heck you're doing. If I had an employee cancel a sale because a buyer failed to answer 10a..........I would find a new sales clerk.
     
    JO JO likes this.
  17. Wisco

    Wisco member

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    No joke. Fired on the spot.

    As with all the internet, it's hard to know unless you were there, but I know when a customer is a turd the same as I know when a sales clerk is screwing with me.

    Both the help one hires and the average clientele says a lot about the business...
     
  18. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    Don't know when this was but nowadays that is quite common. Tons of people go online to do their research then just walk in and say they want whatever.
     
  19. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    "ISTR?" Another acronym I'm not familiar with ... Doesn't matter. Marijuana is still a Schedule 1 controlled substance as far as the federal government is concerned, so regardless of whether pot is legal for recreational use in one's state, if one is a regular user of this substance, one is a prohibited person.

    Lotsa folks up in my state who cannot understand this ...
     
  20. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    But by all means, drink as much alcohol as you want. Hell, throw in some DUIs, you aren't a felon in Virginia unless you hit your third DUI in a ten year period. But smoke a plant? Loss of constitutional rights, lol. And this is coming from someone that's never touched the stuff. It's just funny how silly we can be sometimes in America. But alas, I am a bit off topic.
     
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  21. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    Generally speaking, the markup on guns is low, compared to the markup on
    non BC items and accessories. In many stores, the clerks are very careful to tune out
    rude or loony behavior, but refuse a sale, based upon certain red flags. If a
    customer crosses a line, and raises a red flag, I've seen a handful of LGSs
    refuse a sale to somebody they thought was either suspect, or not entirely
    lawful.
     
  22. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Yeah, it's all just funny how silly we can be until you have to share the public roadways with all the stoners who are driving while high in a state where recreational pot is legal ... It's pretty flippin' obvious around here these days.

    I don't want these assclowns carrying around loaded firearms, either.
     
  23. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    I don't want anyone driving or carrying a gun under the influence whether it be weed, alcohol, prescription med cocktail etc. Not sure what that has to do with what I said though.
     
  24. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Oh, this wasn't you?
    "But smoke a plant? Loss of constitutional rights, lol. And this is coming from someone that's never touched the stuff. It's just funny how silly we can be sometimes in America."
     
  25. Hanzo581

    Hanzo581 Member

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    EDIT: Never mind, this isn't the place for this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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