Ill fitting caps----Who's to blame

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pancho

Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,873
Location
Southwestern, Ohio out in the country about 40 mil
A subject was brought up on the "fighting gun" thread that was a little off subject but drew my interest so I thought to start a new thread.
The subject is ill fitting caps. Some would suggest that the cap manufacturers are to blame. I would suggest that the nipple manufacturers are whether original or aftermarket. If there was an industry standard to the size and shape of nipples and it was applied our troubles would be over. The cap manufacturers would have a standard to build to. If the nipple manufacturers don't take size seriously why would the cap manufacturers.

Can you imagine the headache caused if the combustion engine industry bored and tapped their sparkplug holes to the standard that the gun industry manufactures nipples? As it is there are thousands of different sparkplugs but at least you know that a set of the specified plugs will screw into your engine.

I would also suggest that an aftermarket nipple manufacturer such as Tresco test the various cap's consistency, choose the most consistent and then size their nipples to that specific cap and let the buyer know that the nipple is specific to that cap. If an aftermarket nipple company did that I wouldn't hesitate to junk the OEM nipples before snapping a cap and replace them with the aftermarket nipples. If there is a company that does that let me know.
 
Well, you are right of course.

But the majority of the revolver-sized percussion cap nipples that are made are made in Italy and end up on reproduction revolvers - and the nipples are not made by Aldo Uberti or F.lli. Pietta, but are made in Giuseppe's Nipple Factory down the road, of Giuseppe's competition across the street. That's where the lack of standardization comes in. It's in the cottage industry that feeds parts to Uberti and Pietta.

The caps themselves are fairly uniform if you actually check their dimensions. If the nipple manufacturers could somehow be made to adopt and adhere to a standard, then life would be simpler.

Good luck.
 
What's the point of fixing 'blame'? Who cares who's to 'blame'? What are you going to do about it, sue somebody?

Get over it.
 
Actually I don't care about blame mykeal I hoped that my post , if you read between the lines, didn't care about blame but should have brought to mind that controlling the foreign manufacturers by "standards" was futile and that the cure is with the aftermarket manufacturers of nipples, only they can recognize the problem and address it.
 
The caps themselves are fairly uniform if you actually check their dimensions.
I have checked the dimensions, and posted the results here, as have others. They are certainly not fairly uniform. They vary all over the place. And so do the OEM and aftermarket nipples as has been suggested.

Actually I don't care about blame
Fooled me. The title asked who was to blame, then the 2nd and 3rd sentences are about who's to blame. Not quite sure how I was to infer something else.

Tresos are the most consistent nipple cones I've found. I have no idea whether that meets anyone else's criteria for standardization or not. I'm learning not to make any assumptions about what somebody else means versus what they write.
 
Tresco may be consistent with itself but is it consistent with any available cap and what cap manufacturer is the most consistent? The baseline of my thread was that companies like Tresco would benefit themselves and us if they let us know what cap they used as a standard to create their nipples.
As to blame mykeal please read my previous post about exciting conversation.
 
I don't know. First thing I ever do with a BP pistol or C&B revolver is toss the factory nipples & replace them with new ones from either Uncle Mike's or MSM & have never had a problem. I use CCI #11, & RWS #1075 caps & can't recall the last time I had a loose fitting cap.
 
Remington #11's fit mine with no issues, except for the rare cap that doesn't ignite. I'm more concerned about the spent cap that won't fall off, or one that gets in the mechanism ( and yes, I do raise the gun up to clear them out, but they don't always fall off ).
 
Pancho,

It's TRESO not TRESCO

from the Possibles Shop.....

AMPCO Nipples

TRESO nipples are made from Ampco, a tough alloy with a tensile strength of 118,000 psi, which is tougher than most steels used in muzzleloading barrels.
 
You guys really think there's that much variation from batch to batch on cap sizes? I'm not being argumentative but I just have really not found that.

I have Treso's and really never found a CCI #10 that fit. Remington #11's and RWS 1075's always fit.

I ran across some CCI #10 at a good price so I put a set of extra Treso's in my drill press and hit them with a fine tooth file till the CCI's fit. Forget using anything but a file to turn these nipples down. They're hard and I don't know what Blomquist uses but his are even harder than the Treso's


I talked to the guy who owns Blomquist. He said that he makes his nipples based on RWS 1075's.
 
tpelle said:
...and the nipples are not made by Aldo Uberti or F.lli. Pietta, but are made in Giuseppe's Nipple Factory down the road, of Giuseppe's competition across the street. That's where the lack of standardization comes in. It's in the cottage industry that feeds parts to Uberti and Pietta.

I don't know if that's true today or not.
Where did you hear that?
It's hard to believe that each company wouldn't make their own and save some money by doing so.
And even if they did sub-contract the nipple production then they would still need to be made to specifications. Some sub-contractors actually make better parts so that they don't lose their contract.
Pietta seems to have standardized nipples.
Folks just don't like that each maker's nipples are standardized to fit caps that they don't buy, don't have access too or need to test fit.
The problem with trying to enact cap standards is what about fitting all of the nipples that have been made in the past?
It's too easy to dress an oversize nipple to blame the caps for not fitting, or the cap or nipple makers for them not being standardized.
If some caps are small, then they will fit the nipples that folks have already reduced in size, even if that's due to wear or poor tolerances or being intended for a smaller cap size.
Larger caps can always be pinched.
New nipples can always be made and bought.
They're just like any other gun part that needs to be hand fitted to work properly.
Not all .22LR semi-autos will function with the same ammo.
There's always brands that work better than another.
That's why there are gunsmiths and files and known methods for fixing guns.
 
Last edited:
I bought a 1849 Pocket Colt .31 antique and the nipples were in bad shape and totally rusted into the cylinder.I found a period replacement cylinder in very good shape with just the threaded holes (and a very good stage coach hold-up scene). I took a nipple out of my new Uberti 1851 Navy and it fit perfectly so I used them to get my Pocket in shoot-able condition. I replaced the Uberti nipples with Ampco nipples which only work with Remington #11,CCI # 11 caps are too long and don't go off with the first strike of the hammer.
 
The "improved" Remington #10s fit fine on my ROA. Today, to have fun, I shot a percussion cap out of my air rifle and it popped upon impact, leaving a soot mark.
 
It's definately the nipple fairies fault !!! It's always those pesky fairies that foul things up.... EVERYTIME !!!

LOL !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"
 
What EW said plus have a tin of CCI 10 and 11 ...a Tin of Rem 10 and 11 on hand and mark which caps fit which Revs best ... once you find the answers to those Revs/Pistols out order a 1,000 of each or all then you'll have no worries.
I have several mfg. Revs and rifles all with factory Cones(nipples on them)
Back it the Old Days I think they had Cone/cap sizes from #9's to #12's so actually we're better off today.
 
I have had better luck with the #11's too, they may need a little pinch to stay put but they fire every time!
I have had#10's that seated on some nipples and the next nipple up was too large to let the Cap fit all the way down to the anvil. My misfires occur when the cap dosen't fit all the way down. With #10's, I have had caps that took 3 strikes to seat down and fire.
Since I went to Remington #11's I have had a lot better luck!
CCI Caps seem to fragment (maybe the metal is too thick?).
RWS Caps seem to be too thin of a metal and often fall off due to recoil. I have had a good number of those embarassing "clicks" due to an empty nipple.
I'm sure the dimensions of the "Stock" You know the manufacturers go with the cheapest nipples they can get. I'd gladly pay the extra $10-$15 to have a good set of nipples come with the revolvers. Italian manufacturers don't seem to care about furnishing good nipples but at least the rest of the revolvers are made of quality parts!
ZVP
 
Pancho,
You are in luck! There is one company that specifically makes their tubes for a specific size of cap. I have also spoken with them on the phone and know the cap of choice for them is the Remington #11. There is a reason they chose the number 11 size caps, that is because there are actually three cap brands currently available that will fit their tubes.

The company I am speaking of is of course Treso. This is a copy of page 27 of the catalog from The House of Muskets, these are the same folks that brand the tubes and a lot of other accessories under the Treso name.

HouseofMusketspg27.png

The good news is that not only will the Remington Caps fit, but the CCI #11, The RWS 1075 and the RWS 1075 Plus caps fit pretty well. I have read for several years about the "non-uniformity" and "inconsistency" of caps. But, I have found they are actually much more consistent in the ability to fit than many have led us to believe.

First of all you have to set aside your prejudices and consider for a second that the Earth really isn't flat just because everyone who was considered an authority said so at one time. Belief of this type seems to be a condition that still exists in the 21st century.

The reason caps that don't seem to match dimensionally fit, is that the tubes they fit on are tapered and not cylindrical in shape. No one has been able to produce (produce evidence of) a standard for cap sizes There are no documents from an organization like SAAMI. Even without this the different manufacturers were able to create cap geometries that would fit some standard tube sizes that have been around for a while.

If you have ever looked at antique cap tins you will often see them labeled "For Colt's Belt and Pocket Pistols," or such like. I have several original Colt's and they give me the unique capability to compare their tube geometry with modern tubes we find on reproductions. I have found that Uberti, Colt 2nd Gen and Colt Signature Series revolvers have tubes that are dimensionally very similar externally to the original Colt's tubes. I can't definitively say they chose Colt's tubes as the standard, "but if the cap fits..."

Using this tube geometry different manufacturers have sometimes chosen different methods of creating a well fitting cap. Since the tubes are tapered it takes two dimensions on the caps control the fit, those being the internal diameter and the "skirt length" which is the interior distance from the mouth of the cap opening to the priming compound. Remington has chosen the approach of using one diameter for both the #10 and #11 caps and they change the length of the skirt to make the fit. Other companies have similar heights between their #10 and #11 caps but change the I.D. to effect a fit.

Look at the most recent version of my cap chart. It is growing, I now have over one hundred and twenty data points for both the Remington #10 and #11 caps over multiple lots. I am adding to the CCI and the RWS measurement pools as well.

CapChart7_8_11.png

One of the things that is confusing to most folks is the apparent difference in heights when you set the caps side by side nad they appear different. They attribute this to no standardization in sizes, but the exterior is not the driver for the fits. If you look at the chart above you will note the second through sixth caps have VERY similar internal heights, then if you look at the Rem. #11, CCI#11, RWS 1075 and RWS 1075 Plus caps they have a statistically insignificant difference in I.D.s. The perceived difference in height is actually in the priming compound volume, not the effecive "skirt" length.

I don't post models on the forum anymore, but I can direct you to another forum where I show the relationships between the tapered tubes (cones) and the caps. When viewing these older posts remember I was still collecting cap data and the dimensions were still converging to the dimensions you see on the chart above. As the sample population grows our confidence in the reported numbers grows as being accurate representations of the average dimensions for each cap. Even so, you will see there wasn't a major shift in dimensions in the last three or four years. Note that some of the manufacturers made some geometry changes they called improvements prior to that, so if you have 5 to 20 year old caps they may vary a bit from these numbers, but you may be surprised because they will still fit the Treso tubes. Remember it is internal height and I.D. that make the fit. You will find Remington chose a different method of effecting that fit 20 years ago, but they still fit.

[FONT=&quot]For some background and illustrations on the taper fits of the caps on tubes see this earlier post:

[/FONT]http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic=35422.msg455339#msg455339

For those of you stuck with #10 caps(or simply liking them, that's O.K. too), I show how to modify a Treso tube to be optimized for Remington #10 caps, but CCI #10s will fit as well. If I ever can't get Rem. #11 caps I replace the tube sets on a pair of my competition pistols with Treso tubes machined to these dimensions:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic=35696.msg489781#msg489781

So open your mind, and think it through. There is actually method to the apparent madness of the different brands of caps. Furthermore, there is much more uniformity dimensionally within a size per brand than many have believed for a long time.

My recommendation if get Treso tubes in the thread size that matches your revolver (by manufacturer), get Remington #11 caps and don't look back...

Remember you just need a very slight press fit, not heavy fits which split skirts, flare the caps and sometimes require a seating stick to bottom out.

Best of luck and happy shooting,
Mako
 
Last edited:
Back when I got my second 1861 Navy Makos told me to get Tresso nipples and they work! I still had CCI 11 caps and they work to. I got some REM 11 caps at cabelas when we were on the road and I'm ready now. That link shows how to make your pistol work and I have some sanded down machined washers in mine now to take up the space in the cylinder pin hole. The Tresso nipples just screwed in and were perfect from the first time I tried them. They do get black but they work better than the originals. My opinion I guess but no problems like I used to have with my first 1861.
SM
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top