Illegal immigration, symptom of?
- Thread starter Otherguy Overby
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spartacus2002
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cz75bdneos22
Member
what created the symptom. that's easy. demand for cheap labor to fill needed job positions in food, service, construction, sanitary and agricultural sectors of the economy. since legal workers are not fighting each other to fill these positions, then the illegal workers are dying, literally, sometimes to fill those slots. when you are working for $2-3 dollars a day in your country, at $5.25/hr for working a minimum wage job here in the USA is worth it all. even if it involves doing an unpleasant, dangerous or unwanted job...it does not take a genius to figure this out..YMMV.
Now, there's problems alright clearly evident here in the USA...
# 1: what are you going to do about the 12 million, depending on whose figures you wish to employ, illegal immigrants already here entrenched in the economy?
#2: what are you going to do about the USA's porous borders (North and South), cause it's not about race...right!, which allowed the above 12 million people to intrude into the country? Border Patrol and all...
#3
roblems..we got problems. what are we going to do about it? we have only begun to see how looking simplistically at complex ( social, cultural, political and economic) issues will get you nowhere fast. the results speak louder than words. Don't tell me jack, show me!
Now, there's problems alright clearly evident here in the USA...
# 1: what are you going to do about the 12 million, depending on whose figures you wish to employ, illegal immigrants already here entrenched in the economy?
#2: what are you going to do about the USA's porous borders (North and South), cause it's not about race...right!, which allowed the above 12 million people to intrude into the country? Border Patrol and all...
#3
roblems..we got problems. what are we going to do about it? we have only begun to see how looking simplistically at complex ( social, cultural, political and economic) issues will get you nowhere fast. the results speak louder than words. Don't tell me jack, show me!
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Not to take up for Tyson but the above comment is untrue. Tyson does have benefits. Very good health insurance, retirement plan and paid vacation and sick days. Pay is 7.50 to 11.50 an hour. Pay is not great but two people working can make 41,000 a year at ten dollars an hour. And living in Arkansas is not too bad at that income. You get 4 family members working there and you have 83,200 to that family. This is what the immigrants do. You can not get the poor white trash in Arkansas to do that as they rather sit on their butts use meth, drink beer and get a disability check. I am aganist amesty and illegal immigration. But the reason above is also why they want to come here. If the poor people in this country living off the goverment tit would work they could in one generation have a much better life. That is if liberalism had not killed the family and work ethic.:banghead:
Quite simply, a calculated agenda. The new Pan-American state.
"Free trade" was the hammer. Mass influxes of the suthuners are the wedge.
------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
"Free trade" was the hammer. Mass influxes of the suthuners are the wedge.
------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
longeyes
member
The U.S. Marines are in the wrong country.
Otherguy Overby
member
The answer for the wrong question?
It sure seems to me that between the Left, the media and the majority of politicians we and they are asking the wrong questions. Of course their providing the wrong answers doesn't help either. There won't be a workable solution until people start asking the right question: What brings them here? Work and opportunity? We really can't blame humans for being motivated and taking care of #1, it's just human nature. So what's hurting us the most? I'm of the opinion it's giving them government services. IOW, government services should only be provided to those here legally.
Of course the left would howl: racism, class warfare, predjudice and a host of other socialist spin and scare would be trotted out on demand. They are also close to acheiving a communist dream, fast tracking illegals already here for "citizenship." IOW, new socialist voters for common socialist dreams.
One lesson we seem to have never learned from history is that giving somone something for nothing does not bring gratitude. Those things best appreciated are those things worked for.
If we and our government stuck closer to the constitution we could focus more clearly on what to do. There's NO right to welfare, government sevices, or whatever. Only a right to be soverign individuals and pursue wealth and happiness (guns are part of being sovereign.) When the US government became a defacto corporation, they neglected one really important thing: Making citizens shareholders.
It sure seems to me that between the Left, the media and the majority of politicians we and they are asking the wrong questions. Of course their providing the wrong answers doesn't help either. There won't be a workable solution until people start asking the right question: What brings them here? Work and opportunity? We really can't blame humans for being motivated and taking care of #1, it's just human nature. So what's hurting us the most? I'm of the opinion it's giving them government services. IOW, government services should only be provided to those here legally.
Of course the left would howl: racism, class warfare, predjudice and a host of other socialist spin and scare would be trotted out on demand. They are also close to acheiving a communist dream, fast tracking illegals already here for "citizenship." IOW, new socialist voters for common socialist dreams.
One lesson we seem to have never learned from history is that giving somone something for nothing does not bring gratitude. Those things best appreciated are those things worked for.
If we and our government stuck closer to the constitution we could focus more clearly on what to do. There's NO right to welfare, government sevices, or whatever. Only a right to be soverign individuals and pursue wealth and happiness (guns are part of being sovereign.) When the US government became a defacto corporation, they neglected one really important thing: Making citizens shareholders.
DRZinn
Member
Otherguy, you've nailed it, but neither wing of the party entrenched in the halls of powerwill ever agree with you.
If we'd just stop giving them things, they'd no longer be a problem.
We talk about the drain on our resources. Gone.
We talk about their taking American jobs. Over, because without government help they'd demand higher wages, as would the Americans no longer receiving welfare and suddenly realizing that, like the rest of us, if they don't work they'll starve.
We talk about non-assimilation. What sustains the non-assimilation is their permanent "other" status. Make them the same (as in working for a living, and receiving nothing for free) and they'll assimilate.
BUT, border enforcement is still necessary, for national defense.
If we'd just stop giving them things, they'd no longer be a problem.
We talk about the drain on our resources. Gone.
We talk about their taking American jobs. Over, because without government help they'd demand higher wages, as would the Americans no longer receiving welfare and suddenly realizing that, like the rest of us, if they don't work they'll starve.
We talk about non-assimilation. What sustains the non-assimilation is their permanent "other" status. Make them the same (as in working for a living, and receiving nothing for free) and they'll assimilate.
BUT, border enforcement is still necessary, for national defense.
longeyes
member
While I agree with you that our "safety net" has come to strangle us, I don't think this problem would go away simply by the removal--implausible and wrong--of our entire social services apparatus. Are we to dismantle our libraries because they are over-used by people who are not supposed to be here in the first place? Rubbish. We do not need to punish ourselves because we are being invaded. The issue of the welfare state is a separate issue from illegal immigration. It would NOT be okay if unlimited numbers of people flooded into America, even if, ostensibly, they only came to get work. The labor market would be destroyed, our infrastructure taxed beyond repair, our natural resources exhausted. These fantasies of operating a great nation without a government are foolish. Who is going to enforce the laws, protect private property? Unchecked illegall immigration will end in mass anarchy and the rule of the jungle, my friends. You will have here what we have seen in Third World country after country. You want MS-13 running your state? Well, welcome to Warlord America.
DRZinn
Member
Who said anything about not having a government?
Manedwolf
member
As to people fussing about the Statue of Liberty plaque and waxing poetic about how it doesn't apply...it does.
People who came in back then came in LEGALLY. They didn't come in wherever. They came in through Ellis Island, were quarantined, checked for diseases, processed, did paperwork, and came in as legal immigrants.
Go see the Ellis Island museum. The whole experience is explained there. They had better security THEN than we do now!
People who came in back then came in LEGALLY. They didn't come in wherever. They came in through Ellis Island, were quarantined, checked for diseases, processed, did paperwork, and came in as legal immigrants.
Go see the Ellis Island museum. The whole experience is explained there. They had better security THEN than we do now!
Topgun
member
As I stated in another thread, the "immigration problem" has been around for years. It is simply the newest diversion that Komissar Bushes cronies have dug up to divert your attention from their mess (although profitable for THEM) that they made and continue to make in Iraq.
Which in turn was the diversion from the 9/11 questions.
And which is far less dangerous than actually taking on Iran which could disrupt the flow of oil nearly immediately.
GIT THEM IMMIEGURNTS! BAH GAWD! Whut? JOONYER WUZ KILLT IN FALLUJAH? W'AL AH got immy-grunts on mah mind now. Go git me a beer.
spin spin spin..... You are an American. You no longer control the vertical. You no longer control the horizontal.
Which in turn was the diversion from the 9/11 questions.
And which is far less dangerous than actually taking on Iran which could disrupt the flow of oil nearly immediately.
GIT THEM IMMIEGURNTS! BAH GAWD! Whut? JOONYER WUZ KILLT IN FALLUJAH? W'AL AH got immy-grunts on mah mind now. Go git me a beer.
spin spin spin..... You are an American. You no longer control the vertical. You no longer control the horizontal.
mcg-doc
Member
Jammer Six said:
Anyone CAN COME! Just do it legally. I did. You cannot illegally move to Mexico. Why should Mexicans be allowed to violate our borders?
mcg-doc
Member
Manedwolf said:
Excellent recommendation! May be then proponents of “open borders” will learn the truth about our history. Not everyone was allowed through Ellis Island either. For example, each potential immigrant underwent a physical exam. Those with trachoma were turned away. At that time, this disease had no treatment and was considerer a threat to public health. Current illegal immigrants are treat to our economy and national security.
"Not only can you hire illegals at lower wages and benefits (the U.S. government can pony up the rest in free health care and food stamps), but if you get any agitators, you can have the INS remove him with just a simple phone call..."
you hit that nail ..but its not just cheaper wages, its not paying for the various insurance programs that employers have to pay, like workers comp...no taxes to deduct from their check,no benefits, they are paid under the table...legal workers will lose out to illegals no matter what happens,its cheaper to hire them,if they get hurt on the job..tough luck, theres 50 more waiting for the same job.though its not necassarily the right thing to do, employers do it to get higher profits while cutting their costs and americans are being sold out to the cheapest bidder.
all this not to mention the drug dealers, criminals, gang members and "others" that might use the oppertunity to get in unnoticed.
I say make em all learn english,get drivers liscences like the rest of us and pay taxes like the rest of us...paying insurance and their own health care. soon enough, they will be demanding much more money too.
you hit that nail ..but its not just cheaper wages, its not paying for the various insurance programs that employers have to pay, like workers comp...no taxes to deduct from their check,no benefits, they are paid under the table...legal workers will lose out to illegals no matter what happens,its cheaper to hire them,if they get hurt on the job..tough luck, theres 50 more waiting for the same job.though its not necassarily the right thing to do, employers do it to get higher profits while cutting their costs and americans are being sold out to the cheapest bidder.
all this not to mention the drug dealers, criminals, gang members and "others" that might use the oppertunity to get in unnoticed.
I say make em all learn english,get drivers liscences like the rest of us and pay taxes like the rest of us...paying insurance and their own health care. soon enough, they will be demanding much more money too.
Gas Operated
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I'd start my immigration reform plan with 25 lashes with a bullwhip for anyone who knowingly hires an illegal, per illegal.
Jammer Six
member
Because our nation is different from theirs.
In so many ways. This is one of them.
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.
gc70
Member
We get stronger every time a legal immigrant crosses the border.
We get weaker every time an employer sacrifices ethics for profits.
Lets see I keep hearing that these people make 2-3 dollars a day. Lets say that is true. That is 60-90 dollars a month. What I wonder is why should these people get to walk in here illegally when someone who is a trained physician from Russia who is a friend of mine had to marry an Amercian Citizen to get to this country. This was 6 years agp. She was an internet bride. She could only get a 3 month fiancee VISA. She had to marry in that time to get to migrate here legally. She did. She is happy. It will take her many years to gain citizenship and she will give up her Russian citizenship. Oh yea she made 40.00 a month as a physician in that great socialist country known as Russia. Why not let more of these type of immigrants in. She has to check in with the immigration office every so often. And guess what she does everytime.
mcg-doc
Member
Kim:
Many countries do already have an immigration system based on a potential value the new immigrant can bring to the society. A few that come to my mind are Australia and Canada. Any one can move there. You just have collect a predefined number of “points.” These points are awarded for education, age, sponsors, knowledge of English, etc. Such system is fair and just.
Many countries do already have an immigration system based on a potential value the new immigrant can bring to the society. A few that come to my mind are Australia and Canada. Any one can move there. You just have collect a predefined number of “points.” These points are awarded for education, age, sponsors, knowledge of English, etc. Such system is fair and just.
longeyes
member
A meritocratic system for establishing who can and can't immigrate would violate the most deeply held principles of elitist socialists like Ted Kennedy and other architects of American demise. You ask for rationality; this is about political power and domination, not rationality.
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