Illegal to buy a gun from a felon?

[henschman]

An interesting question came up in a discussion I had today. We all know that it is against federal law to sell a gun to someone who you know or have reason to know is a felon; but what about the opposite? Is anyone aware of any laws (federal or otherwise) which prohibit a person from buying a gun from someone they believe to be a felon?

To make the question more explicit, let's say that you know for a fact that a person is a convicted felon, and that it is against the law for him to own a firearm. Is there any law that would prevent you from buying a firearm from him? Let's say you have no reason to believe the firearm is stolen.

I am unaware of any law that explicitly outlaws such a transaction.

Putting myself in the shoes of a Federal prosecutor, the best thing I could come up with would be an aiding and abetting charge. The federal law on aiding and abetting says that anyone who violates a federal law or "aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission" is punishable as a principal.

So what do you think -- in buying a gun from a felon, are you aiding, abetting, counseling, commanding, inducing, or procuring his violation of the law? I think not. He already has possession of the gun, so the crime is already being committed -- if anything, you are helping him come into compliance with the law by relieving him of his possession of the prohibited item.

I think the same reasoning would apply to a conspiracy or accessory charge. What say y'all?

 

[USAF_Vet]

It seems to me that since a felon is unable to own firearms, how could they legally sell one?

I do see some grey area, for example, if person A owns a gun and is convicted of a class E felony, something like attempting to receive stolen property, they can no longer own the gun. What happens to it? Can they sell it? Can they give it away? Do they have to turn it in to the police? Is there a certain time period that this must happen, or is it once the judges gavel falls, they are 100% prohibited from owning fire arms?

Your question raises some points, but I, personally, wouldn't buy a gun from someone I thought might be a prohibited person. If there was any reason to think that the transaction might be illegal, I'm not doing it.

let's say that you know for a fact that a person is a convicted felon, and that it is against the law for him to own a firearm.

Taking this into consideration, I would assume/ err on the side of caution that the transaction would be illegal.

the firearms doesn't have to be stolen for it to be an illegal sale. It's mere possession by a felon is illegal.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I would say that its not illegal for you to buy it but it would be illegal for to have owned it in the first place and it would probably be taken for evidence if this was discovered.

 

[ants]

Once a gun owner becomes convicted of a felony,
he has to get rid of the guns.

If he needs the money for legal fees, he sells them.
That isn't a violation of law, is it?


If you are unsure about taking posession from a felon,
and assuming you are able to own a gun,
suggest that you pay 20 bucks to an FFL for the transfer.

 

[Greg528iT]

Let's add a scenario where I might say be inclined to buy a firearm from a convicted felon.

A buddy's buddy, who've you've met in the past. Was a legal firearm owner. He get's caught up in a bad situation, get's arrested, tried and convicted. While out on bond awaiting his sentencing hearing, he realizes he must discard of all of his weapons. He offers to sell you the (fill in the blank) firearm you've always wanted.
What do you do?

 

[MtnCreek]

What do you do?

I stay away from my buddy's buddy who is a convicted felon. No good could come from associating w/ him.

 

[Bubba613]

I've bought several firearms from felons. Think of it as getting guns out of the hands of criminals.

 

[azmjs]

A very interesting question!

 

[NavyLCDR]

Nothing illegal about it. Same with a domestic violence conviction - next door neighbor pushes his wife because she is drunk and wants to scrap with him. He gets the DV conviction so he has to sell his guns. Nothing illegal about that at all. (other than the government saying he can't have firearms... but that's a totally different flavor of criminal.)

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm having a hard time thinking of how it could possibly be illegal, if you are not a prohibited person.

What I would say is the advice about association issues is well taken. And if you know what's happening then you need to be darned careful there won't be allegations that you're just holding the arms for your friend.

But in an arm's length transaction where you have no idea the guy is convicted and have no intention of dealing with him again? I can't spot the illegal part there, assuming these aren't stolen firearms.

 

[Zundfolge]

I stay away from my buddy's buddy who is a convicted felon. No good could come from associating w/ him.

This assumes that all felons are automatically bad people. The threshold for felony has been lowered so much over the years that in some jurisdictions there are "crimes" that you wouldn't even realize are crimes that are felonies.

For example, in Florida jaywalking with a child is a felony. In Michigan, accessing the free WiFi from outside a business is a felony. Apparently in Texas simply spanking your child can make you a felon.

It's just too easy for an otherwise decent and law abiding citizen to become a felon for us to assume that everyone with a felony on their record is defacto a bad guy.

Hell, I bet there are many members of this very forum that have violated firearms related laws that they had no idea existed ... and most of those are felonies.

 

[El Tejon]

It depends.

Is the firearm you are purchasing stolen or an illegal NFA weapon???

 

[azmjs]

I wonder whether a felon could control an NFA trust and invest in MGs, so long as he never personally took possession or physical control of them?

If the MG is owned by the trust, and the trust is not a felon, then MGs could be sold to the trust since it isn't a prohibited person, perhaps?

 

[NavyLCDR]

And if you know what's happening then you need to be darned careful there won't be allegations that you're just holding the arms for your friend.

Why would that be a problem? Felons can get their rights restored to possess firearms.

 

[CoRoMo]

I might have to end up buying some guns from a prohibited person.

A buddy's buddy, who've you've met in the past. Was a legal firearm owner. He get's caught up in a bad situation, get's arrested, tried and convicted.

I happen to know a guy who is under a restraining order, in which the judge stated that he's not allowed to possess firearms until he can get things cleared. Long story, but his guns have been out of his possession for a while now, and if he can't prove his case, he'll have to dispose of them. He won't even need to be in the same zipcode that his guns are in, in order to sell them. He just needs to agree upon the price and receive the money. He can do all that over the phone and through the mail. I'll go pick up the one(s) I end up buying from the guy who's holding them for him.

I wonder whether a felon could control an NFA trust...

The ATF is well aware of this scenario. Prime reason they detest the 'trust route'. It is very difficult for them to track and trace all trustees, especially if a trustee is added after they've approved a form.

 

[Bubbles]

Yes, it's legal. I know of at least one instance where someone who owned NFA toys got convicted of a felony and went to jail, and he had to designate POA to someone else to sign the Form 4's to transfer the guns to the buyer.

That said, in most cases folks charged with a felony often end up selling their guns to pay the defense attorney.

 

[RatDrall]

Why wouldn't you be able to buy a gun from a felon? True he shouldn't have the gun, but so long as it wasn't used in a crime what's the danger in you now possessing it? Once the weapon is out of the felon's possession, everyone is OK right?

I stay away from my buddy's buddy who is a convicted felon. No good could come from associating w/ him.

You used to poop your pants, but don't anymore. Everyone has a past.

I try to give everyone a chance, would hate to miss out good times with an interesting person because they have a colorful past.

It's extremely easy to be convicted of a crime when everything in the world is illegal. Too many people in this country willing to stick it to "those people", until they are neck deep in trouble with the law themselves because of some idiotic technicality...

 

[CapnMac]

I wonder whether a felon could control an NFA trust and invest in MGs, so long as he never personally took possession or physical control of them?

Might get to the "keep" (as in pay rent/taxes/mortgage for the storage) part in 18§922 definition. The bear or possess is pretty clear.

Dunno.

Realistically, I'll guess it's different if you are just Gordo and not G. Gordon Liddy.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

No good could come from this. I wouldn't get invovled in any way shape or form. I'm on the very conservative side of things. A few hours of attorney fees would likely cost as much if not more if they need to talk on your behalf at some point.

 

[Cosmoline]

Why would that be a problem? Felons can get their rights restored to possess firearms.

If you're just holding them for him, but it's understood they're still his firearms, then you are taking a heck of a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. I'm not sure about the legality of helping a felon keep possession of prohibited arms. And actual restoration of rights is rare and full of traps and pitfalls for the unwary. If you transfer back and his rights weren't restored, THAT is big time trouble.

Best to keep things arm's length and with no reserved rights or agreements to "sell back" at some future point. That's actually a good procedure regardless of the circumstances.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you're just holding them for him, but it's understood they're still his firearms, then you are taking a heck of a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. I'm not sure about the legality of helping a felon keep possession of prohibited arms.

You seem to be confusing the terms "ownership" and "possession". There is no Federal law that prevents a felon from owning firearms. It's relatively easy to own an item and not be in possession of the item. For example, I "own" a Ninetendo Wii, but my stepdaughter has "possessed" it ever since I married her mother.

 

[bikemutt]

I'd think there would be some latitude for a newly minted felon to divest herself of her gun collection. If the guns weren't used in the commission of the felony I don't believe the police or the courts demand they be turned over upon sentencing.

Not saying I'd troll newfelongunsforsale.com looking for a deal but based on what the OP described, I think it'd be legal.

 

[MedWheeler]

For example, in Florida jaywalking with a child is a felony.

This is not true. The charge being considered would be "child endangerment", not "jaywalking with a child."

I would think that buying a gun from a person who has just become ineligible to own one is probably like buying a car from someone who has had his driver's license revoked. Now, if the felon is in the practice of unlawfully procuring firearms for the purpose of selling them, you could very well be considered as an accessory by supporting his "business".

 

[bigfatdave]

I would say that its not illegal for you to buy it but it would be illegal for to have owned it in the first place and it would probably be taken for evidence if this was discovered

evidence of what?

 

[medalguy]

I would have no problem buying a firearm FROM a felon. I can't see any violation in our state law or in federal law in purchasing a weapon from a felon. Selling yes, buying no.

In my business I hired several felons and had no problems with any of them. They can make good employees and may be decent people at heart who simply made a mistake.