Illinois Supreme Court to Release Opinion on Legal Gun Containers (People v Diggins)

[Neo-Luddite]

(To telkontar) It's a line from the novel Lord of the Flies (about the Brit schoolboys stranded on an island during WW II). They try to set up a law & order society 'just like home' and well, things go badly...

The line is spoken by Jack early on in the narrative when they are having their first council meeting.

We'll see if we get any further progress, a re-write of the statute, or what.
Please--NO--DO NOT encourage them to 'make laws' in Springfield.

(asside over--sorry)

 

[favre95]

Hey guys...new here. While I think this is a step forward for the people of Illinois. I am wondering one thing. Does this law allow me to "store" a firearm in my console. Or to merely "transport" a firearm in my console? I read through these posts...I hope I'm not asking the same thing twice. But it appears by the way everyone is talking that it is almost as if we can CC within our vehicle. Could someone please clarify this for me. Thanks in advance.

Edit: And yes...I know it can't be loaded. I am just curious if I can leave a gun in my console for however long I feel like having it there.

 

[ilbob]

Hey guys...new here. While I think this is a step forward for the people of Illinois. I am wondering one thing. Does this law allow me to "store" a firearm in my console. Or to merely "transport" a firearm in my console? I read through these posts...I hope I'm not asking the same thing twice. But it appears by the way everyone is talking that it is almost as if we can CC within our vehicle. Could someone please clarify this for me. Thanks in advance.

Edit: And yes...I know it can't be loaded. I am just curious if I can leave a gun in my console for however long I feel like having it there.

This whole thing is going to get someone in jail.

The ONLY thing this has changed is that for the purposes of the UUW laws, the word case has been legally defined to mean what everybody always knew it meant, other than a few LEOs and SA in the state who were confounded by 3rd grade words.

It means IF you have a FOID card you are not in violation of the UUW act if you have an unloaded gun in a console (assuming it is closed).

You are still in violation of the wildlife code restrictions on how guns are supposed to be carried in a car. If you put it in some kind of recognizable gun case inside your console that would appear to satisfy the WC issues.

HOWEVER, this only applies to people with FOID cards. If you are a non-resident you cannot get a FOID card and thus are subject to stricter requirements for transporting firearms.

 

[The Gunman]

IL vs Diggins doesn't mean much

You can read the entire opinion at the IL Supreme Court page.

I have the text of the Illinois Compiled Statutes referenced here: http://illinoishunter.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-vehicle-console-case.html

I contacted the ILDNR Law Enforcement Division and asked what effect this had on the wildlife code, I have the response at my blog.

This really doesn't change much, it only makes the IL laws more complex.

I suspect the fine legislators in IL to add a definition of case to the compiled statutes for the criminal code that will parallel the wildlife code. This will negate the current opinion of the IL Supreme Court in the Diggins case.

 

[Nanook]

Does the Wildlife Code apply if you're not a hunter? Does it apply when not in hunting areas?

That would matter, because if the wildlife code applies everywhere, the ISC decision is pretty much an exercise in futility.

I thought of putting say a pistol rug inside the console, like mentioned above. This would seem to satisfy the Wildlife Code.

 

[ilbob]

You can read the entire opinion at the IL Supreme Court page.

I have the text of the Illinois Compiled Statutes referenced here: http://illinoishunter.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-vehicle-console-case.html

I contacted the ILDNR Law Enforcement Division and asked what effect this had on the wildlife code, I have the response at my blog.

This really doesn't change much, it only makes the IL laws more complex.

I suspect the fine legislators in IL to add a definition of case to the compiled statutes for the criminal code that will parallel the wildlife code. This will negate the current opinion of the IL Supreme Court in the Diggins case.

I don't see how it got more complex. It just affirmed that a case is what it is.

Nothing else has changed. The WC gun transportation in cars provisions never says anywhere in the WC that it applies only while hunting. One might infer that, and that would be a logical inference, but logical and legal and not always directly related.

I am guessing someone not hunting is going to have to get charged with a WC violation of the cased gun law and fight it in court to find out for sure, but there are at least several known cases of people being charged and convicted under this law.

 

[The Gunman]

ilbob,
Complex probably wasn't the best choice of word I could have used, it was just the one that came to mind. Perhaps conflicting or asinine would be better?

My intention was to point out the conflicting nature of the different sections:

The IL Criminal Code vs Wildlife Code (At least pertaining to IL residents.)

The Criminal code allows transportation of firearms that:
(Or should I say prevents one from being charged with Unlawful Use of Weapons.)

"(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;
or
(ii) are not immediately accessible; or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case, firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card."-720 ILCS 5/24-1.6

The IL Criminal Code does not define "case", that is what the resent opinion did.

The IL Wildlife Code is more specific and restrictive:

"(n)It is unlawful for any person, except persons who possess a permit to hunt from a vehicle as provided in this Section and persons otherwise permitted by law, to have or carry any gun in or on any vehicle, conveyance or aircraft, unless such gun is unloaded and enclosed in a case, except that at field trials authorized by Section 2.34 of this Act, unloaded guns or guns loaded with blank cartridges only, may be carried on horseback while not contained in a case, or to have or carry any bow or arrow device in or on any vehicle unless such bow or arrow device is unstrung or enclosed in a case, or otherwise made inoperable. "-520 ILCS 5/2.33

The Wildlife Code also specifically defines "case":

"(520 ILCS 5/1.2b‑1) (from Ch. 61, par. 1.2b‑1)Sec. 1.2b‑1. Case. Case means a container specifically designed for the purpose of housing a gun or bow and arrow device which completely encloses such gun or bow and arrow device by being zipped, snapped, buckled, tied or otherwise fastened with no portion of the gun or bow and arrow device exposed.
(Source: P.A. 84‑150.)"

So, is it legal for a person with a valid FOID to have a firearm in the center console of a vehicle?

The criminal code and recent ILSC opinion says yes, the wildlife code says no.

Can a person with a valid FOID have a firearm that is disassembled and non functioning in the rear floorboard of a vehicle?

Again, the criminal code says yes, the wildlife code says no.

 

[The Gunman]

Nanook, the IL Wildlife Code applies to all of IL.

 

[ilbob]

ilbob,
Complex probably wasn't the best choice of word I could have used, it was just the one that came to mind. Perhaps conflicting or asinine would be better?

My intention was to point out the conflicting nature of the different sections:

The IL Criminal Code vs Wildlife Code (At least pertaining to IL residents.)

The Criminal code allows transportation of firearms that:
(Or should I say prevents one from being charged with Unlawful Use of Weapons.)



The IL Criminal Code does not define "case", that is what the resent opinion did.

The IL Wildlife Code is more specific and restrictive:



The Wildlife Code also specifically defines "case":


So, is it legal for a person with a valid FOID to have a firearm in the center console of a vehicle?

The criminal code and recent ILSC opinion says yes, the wildlife code says no.

Can a person with a valid FOID have a firearm that is disassembled and non functioning in the rear floorboard of a vehicle?

Again, the criminal code says yes, the wildlife code says no.

You are missing the point. The UUW act does not specifically allow you to do anything. It just limits what acts are criminalized through that particular statute. Just becasue something is not criminalized in one law does not mean it cannot be criminalized elsewhere. It is confusing though. And that is almost certainly at least partially deliberate on the part of lawmakers.

 

[Mastiff]

If you bought one of those fanny packs that are designed as a pistol holster, I would think that would satisfy both codes.

 

[ilbob]

If you bought one of those fanny packs that are designed as a pistol holster, I would think that would satisfy both codes.

One would think so. But I would bet there are any number of SA and LEOs in IL that would claim there is some ambiguity somewhere that justifies them arresting and charging you with something.

Just the way things are in parts of IL.

 

[The Gunman]

ilbob-

I get your point. We are indeed pointing at the same thing.

One code restricts what the government can charge as unlawful use of a weapon(felony), the other restricts what they can charge for illegal transportation of a firearm(misdemeanor).

I agree, the gooberment likely wanted the confusion so they can write the misdemeanor ticket and get revenue, not house someone in a cell and cost them (and us) money.

Or... it could be an anti's conspiracy to catch a mislead gun owner in the confusion and create another unlawful gun owner to use in the fight against illegal guns.

 

[Nanook]

The Gunman wrote:
Nanook, the IL Wildlife Code applies to all of IL.

Thanks, I was wondering about that one.

So a gun case inside of a console or glove box would probably work, assuming the cop is in a good mood. LOL

 

[Jeff White]

So a gun case inside of a console or glove box would probably work, assuming the cop is in a good mood. LOL

An unloaded gun in a case inside the console was legal before this decision.........

 

[ilbob]

An unloaded gun in a case inside the console was legal before this decision.........

Just like an unloaded gun in the console was not a UUW violation.

 

[AirForceShooter]

You still need your "card"

That's bull

AFS

 

[jbagley77]

New guy here.

I found your site because an LEO neighbor told me about this case coming down last week. Google had this thread as one of the top results. Kudos, for what that's worth.

As to the topic at hand, I've read the case, and my impression is that we Illinoisans are now legally entitled to have an unloaded pistol in our glove-box or armrest compartment, provided we have a valid FOID and the door to the compartment is closed.

One of you asked whether you'd be in violation of the law during the time that you were placing the gun in the compartment (i.e., while it wasn't officially enclosed per statute). One of the previous gun cases dealt with this issue, and the SC stated that the intent of the law was not to deal in absurdities, and that making that conduct illegal would be, in essence, an absurd result. So yes, you're not committing UUW for those brief moments when you uncase your gun and put it in the glove-box.

Here's my question -- what about the ammo? It's all fine and dandy to have an unloaded, uncased pistol sitting in my glove-box, but where is it legal to keep the ammo? Can I keep a loaded magazine right next to the pistol? Does it have to be in a separate enclosed "case?" Could I keep the magazine in the driver's door slot (I keep napkins in there now)? I don't see anything in the law or the cases that states where you have to keep ammo in proximity to the gun itself. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[Jeff White]

Here's my question -- what about the ammo? It's all fine and dandy to have an unloaded, uncased pistol sitting in my glove-box, but where is it legal to keep the ammo?

Anywhere as long as it's not loaded into the weapon.

Can I keep a loaded magazine right next to the pistol?

Yes.

Could I keep the magazine in the driver's door slot (I keep napkins in there now)?

Yes.

I don't see anything in the law or the cases that states where you have to keep ammo in proximity to the gun itself. Anyone have any ideas?

There is nothing saying where you can keep your ammunition as long as it's not loaded into the weapon. However there may be a municipal code somewhere in the state that tells you how you may transport a firearm and ammunition. Illinois has a lot of home rule municipalities who can make their own rules. Municipal code violations usually involve a fine, but it's still a hassle.

And don't forget the Wildlife Code which defines a case and requires all firearms to be transported in one. While you can't be charged with felony UUW any longer, you can still be given a citation under the Wildlife Code, have you uncased firearm seized as evidence, and deal with that hassle.

Put you pistol in a pistol case, place the loaded magazine any where you want (except in the pistol) and put it in your console. It's the only way to be completely legal. This Supreme Court decision hasn't really changed much.