Wildlife tickets are can be and are written on the same uniform citation form that traffic tickets are. You simply write the violation in the blank instead of checking one of the blocks for a common traffic violation. The state provides a nice little booklet that fits in a standard ticket book that has all of the sections of the various laws in it so it's a quick look up. The Uniform Citation and Summons is used for a lot more then traffic. It wouldn't be unheard of for a municipality to order the officers to write those tickets if the city had an anti gun mayor or city council.
Illinois Supreme Court to Release Opinion on Legal Gun Containers (People v Diggins)
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Wildlife tickets are can be and are written on the same uniform citation form that traffic tickets are. You simply write the violation in the blank instead of checking one of the blocks for a common traffic violation. The state provides a nice little booklet that fits in a standard ticket book that has all of the sections of the various laws in it so it's a quick look up. The Uniform Citation and Summons is used for a lot more then traffic. It wouldn't be unheard of for a municipality to order the officers to write those tickets if the city had an anti gun mayor or city council.
Not that simple. Depends on where you are.
There is the public places issue which is a class A misdemeanor.
Phatty
Member
It would probably be pretty difficult to reproduce the fear element of being chased by a guy with a tire iron if a foam pipe is used instead. I would think that the fear and adrenaline one would encounter in a real life situation would raise the difficulty level of simultaneously running, rummaging through a purse for the pistol and ammo and then loading the gun.
Well we really don't want to actually hurt anyone here, just prove a point. Before we get too wrapped up in this you guys should review the Tueller Drill and the subsequent research since it was first published years ago:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm
It's hard enough for someone in an open carry situation like a uniformed police officer to defeat an attack with the assailant charging from 7 yards, you must move off the line of attack in order to draw a loaded weapon from an open carry situation and successfully engage the assailant. Drawing and loading is going to add enough complexity to this that I do believe it would be impossible. I am interested in giving you guys who advocate this kind of carry as a viable defensive option the chance to prove me wrong though.
I built a charger target out of an old lawnmower deck and wheels, a tactical ted dummy, CPVC pipe, nylon line and pulleys. The charger target didn't move quite as fast as a real attacker even with an energetic young officer pulling on the rope and even with the slower speed many officers didn't manage to move offline, draw and engage the charger before it was on them the first time through. But I'm more then willing for you guys to prove to me this is a viable defensive option.
Actually, if you've never tried carrying a "man purse" you might want to...
They're pretty cool.
I often carry a WWI surplus bag (of unknown original purpose). It's about the size of a hardcover book, is divided into two internal compartments, and made of heavy-gauge canvas. I love it. I can put my current book in one compartment, and my wallet/keys/knife/assorted junk in the other.
It can be a bit tough to find the right bag, having both the proper size and not looking "feminine", but surplus stores and guns shows often have what you need.
I'm a fan.
--Shannon
Phatty
Member
Yeah, I know. I'm not advocating that you really do use a tire iron. I was just saying how hard it is to reproduce a real-life scenario. During a drill, you always know in the back of your mind that if you screw up, the worst that will happen is you get bonked in the back of the head with a piece of foam, so your nerves will be a little more collected.
For the record, I think the attacker with the tire iron has the definite advantage. Some SD situations will require a split-second draw and fire. Yeah, you're pretty much screwed in those situations if you need to dig out an unloaded firearm and then load it. Best to rely on your legs in that scenario.
flying_gage
Member
As a firefighter/paramedic, I have had a couple close calls where I was caught off guard. When you RECOGNIZE the imminence of the attack you are already behind the 8 ball; oftentimes too far behind. If I am not mistaken this is part of the reason that officers rest their hands on their weapons during the initial contact with a subject.
I am happy because this may be a step in the right direction, especially when the expected slaughter does not occur. It may bolster the argument for CCW when it comes back up.
From the language in the opinion, does this really remove the Felony aspect of the charge if one were to be caught with a gun in their fanny pack or backpack?
I am happy because this may be a step in the right direction, especially when the expected slaughter does not occur. It may bolster the argument for CCW when it comes back up.
From the language in the opinion, does this really remove the Felony aspect of the charge if one were to be caught with a gun in their fanny pack or backpack?
MisterMike
Member
Jeff White said:
Jeff, I don't read any of the above posts as claiming it's ideal, but, rather, that it's "something." I don't think you'd encounter any argument from anyone here that a loaded and readily available weapon is far preferable.
But, faced with the option of "something" versus "nothing," which is currently the only choice for most Illinoisans (outside Chicago), I'd go with the former.
As for the Wildlife Code, I'd point out to those who are interested in keeping things legal that there are a number of packs and purses designed for carrying a pistol. As long as they zip, snap, buckle, etc.--which I think most all of them do--they would apparently meet the requirements of the law.
This development in the law is certainly interesting, in and of itself. However, the more important question is whether it will have any impact in moving Illinois toward a concealed carry law. I suspect that, unfortunately, it will not.
That's another problem with fanny pack carry for defense. If you see a bad situation coming your way and you load your weapon in preparation, you are committing a felony violation of 720 ILCS 5/24-1 Unlawful Use of Weapons.
Phatty
Member
Yes. Prior to this supreme court opinion, several appellate courts had held that firearms could only be transported in cases that were specifically designed to hold firearms. Today's decision explicitely rejected that argument.
Phatty
Member
As a side note, as recently as 2007 there was an Illinois appellate court case where a guy got a felony conviction for having an unloaded gun in a closed, zippered compartment attached to the backseat of his car. The appellate court upheld the conviction, saying the compartment didn't qualify as a case or other container because it was fixed to the car, rather than being portable. The supreme court denied the appeal in that case. How would you like to be that guy sitting in prison for a felony conviction which the supreme court just ruled is not a crime at all?
Note: the guy is no longer in prison but you can imagine how much it would suck if he still was
Note: the guy is no longer in prison but you can imagine how much it would suck if he still was
armoredman
Member
So under IL law, if you are lawfully carrying an unloaded firearm per statute, and you see something bad about to happen to you, (and you have the time), the mere act of loading your firearm to defend yourself under those great SD laws you mentioned is itself illegal? That is just plain nuts to this old desert rat.
Phatty
Member
It's a huge grey area. In theory, you are breaking the law but should be excused under the self defense exception. Whenever judges bring up that type of scenario in gun cases to government attorneys, the attorneys always argue "that would be an exception under self defense." But in reality, you're probably screwed. There's just so many more ways for it to go wrong than right. For instance, say you're a woman walking down a dark street at night and you notice that a shady-looking man has been following you for several blocks and he is getting closer. You get scared so you slip your gun out of your purse and load it. Turns out, the guy following you is just an undercover detective who was walking the street and he notices that you are holding a gun and arrests you. How is the cop supposed to know that you didn't have a loaded gun on you the whole time? It's going to be his word against yours and you'll probably get charged.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Here is a minor point to ponder, but someone will.
How does the 'uncased' firearm lawfully enter the glove box in the vehicle WITHOUT at some point becoming uncased in the vehicle and thus possibly violating Illinois law?
This will make no sense to ANYONE who resides in the 49 free states outside Illinois.
How does the 'uncased' firearm lawfully enter the glove box in the vehicle WITHOUT at some point becoming uncased in the vehicle and thus possibly violating Illinois law?
This will make no sense to ANYONE who resides in the 49 free states outside Illinois.
"A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly...Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person EXCEPT when on his land or in his own abode or fixed place of business any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm" (720 ILCS 5/) Criminal Code of 1961.
So basically if you put it in your vehicle while you are at your house you should be fine
So basically if you put it in your vehicle while you are at your house you should be fine
flying_gage
Member
So that basically negates the option of carrying it in a container anywhere other than your business, vehicle or house right?
No, I left out the other part that says it is ok to carry it in a case, but Neo-Luddite was asking how you get it in to your center console or other car type case without having it uncased at some point. The above rule does not apply weapons that:
(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;
or
(ii) are not immediately accessible;
or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;
(i) are broken down in a non‑functioning state;
or
(ii) are not immediately accessible;
or
(iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case,firearm carrying box, shipping box, or other container by a person who has been issued a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;
flying_gage
Member
It'll be interesting to see what happens. I am sure a lot of municipalities/agencies are seeking guidance from their legal counsels in light of this.
ljnowell
Member
I read my local paper this evening and there was front page article on it. The article was from the AP and it basically stated that it was legal to now carry in the console. There was nothing at all about conservation tickets or any of the such. It just said that the supreme court definated the glove box or console to be a case and that it was legal to carry unloaded in either.
If you put it in the console on your own property, such as in your driveway, yard or garage it's not a problem. I suppose that someone could stretch the point and charge you with UUW if you put it in the console while your car was parked on the street but that would be a big stretch and how would anyone know or prove it if they did? Sometimes I think we make this harder then it needs to be.
Why would you expect the AP to get it right? Most of the gun owners in Illinois probably don't understand the compiled statutes and that you can receive a citation for a violation of the wildlife code from someone other then a conservation officer while you aren't in the act of hunting.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Sometimes I think we make this harder then it needs to be.
Here in Illinois, (some) people base their entire lives and careers doing just this very thing--especially closer in to Chi. And you know that far better than most I would venture.
And what you described still would take us back to the wildlife code--wouldn't it? Being on private land doesn't make the difference as I understand it.
Maybe I could special order the car from the factory w/ a gun stowed in the glove box and never take it out. Or, disassemble the car and re-assemble it from the glovebox outward with weapon in-situ.
Until CCW permits are available in Illinois, we will suffer from such horrible symptoms of nerosis as these that would boggle the mind of, say, any Hoosier currently alive.
But to the fellow in the intial case it was going to be years of his life taken for no good reason because of our pathetic nature.
Here in Illinois, (some) people base their entire lives and careers doing just this very thing--especially closer in to Chi. And you know that far better than most I would venture.
And what you described still would take us back to the wildlife code--wouldn't it? Being on private land doesn't make the difference as I understand it.
Maybe I could special order the car from the factory w/ a gun stowed in the glove box and never take it out. Or, disassemble the car and re-assemble it from the glovebox outward with weapon in-situ.
Until CCW permits are available in Illinois, we will suffer from such horrible symptoms of nerosis as these that would boggle the mind of, say, any Hoosier currently alive.
But to the fellow in the intial case it was going to be years of his life taken for no good reason because of our pathetic nature.
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Piss & vinegar aside. It's pretty well accepted that if someone with a knife is within 21' of you, you're likely to get stabbed before you can get your loaded gun out it's holster. Far more likely if it's unloaded and in a purse or fanny pack.Slim glimmer of hope for this state afterall... sort of. Gotta take what you get. Agreed this is a huge step for Illinois, thinking it might help to lay some of the groudwork for greater victories as well.
On that note Jeff... tell ya what. How about you come at me with a tire iron, ball bat, heck even a big knife for that matter... I don't have a lot of wind but I got some speed for a short bit. I'll carry an unloaded semi in a fanny pack, I'd even be willing to use on of the wife's purses if you insist, loaded mag in a different compartment too. We could video tape the whole thing as well... my bet, you lose. I'm not saying, I'm just saying. It's not perfect but it's a whole lot more than we had before, eh? So you up for it?
Phatty
Member
Correct. The new trial will mostly be limited to whether or not the center console was open (as the cop testified) or closed (as the defendant and other witness testified). I wouldn't be surprised if the state's attorney just decided to call it quits and drop the charges.
"We'll have rules!" he cried excitedly. "Lots of rules! Then when anyone breaks 'em--"" [to quote Neo-Luddite]
All this is one reason why I pack my guns in the trunk and drive to North Dakota to hunt.
I like the court's ruling. We'll see if we get any further progress, a re-write of the statute, or what.
All this is one reason why I pack my guns in the trunk and drive to North Dakota to hunt.
I like the court's ruling. We'll see if we get any further progress, a re-write of the statute, or what.
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