I'm calling it quits on lil gun.

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

R.W.Dale

Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
11,652
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Holy pressure signs batman!

Apparently 18.5g of lil gun is too much for a 125g Speer TNT in 300 blackout. What is crazy though is Hornady shows a 20g maximum!

I thought I'd give it a shot in this application but apparently my previous experience was simply reinforced.

Looking at the 18.0 grain fired cases you'd never suspect you were .5 grains away from the primers falling out.

Not quite as extreme but a decade ago I swore off the stuff when it would do similar things in 357 magnum aside from not grouping at all. e350c37a905340ac5140eea580dfbf5f.jpg
 
What type of primer were those? That is amazing.

I too have mostly sworn off Lil'Gun except for heavy bullets in the .357 Magnum for my levergun only, never my revolvers. When my supply is gone I will not be buying ant more unless I start loading for the .22 Hornet. (just over 1 pound left) I just might leave the last pound unopened.

I know we try to use shotshell powders for handgun loading all the time but sometimes a shotgun powder is just that, a shotgun powder.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
What type of primer were those? That is amazing.

I r.
Click to expand...



CCI #41's

The case the primer fell out on wont even hold it anymore, it just falls in and out of the pocket!

I've been reloading and even wildcatting for 15 years now and this is the first time I've gotten any kind of "textbook" pressure signs
 
Is it possible the pocket was already loose or damages when removing the crimp?

The pocket sure does look normal in the picture, I'm just asking questions, not doubting you.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Is it possible the pocket was already loose or damages when removing the crimp?

The pocket sure does look normal in the picture, I'm just asking questions, not doubting you.
Click to expand...



I don't think so, all I did with regard to crimp removal was a quick chamfer with a Phillips bit at the edge of the pocket. The other rounds at 18.5 showed signs of severe leakage, 18.0 shows very minute signs of leakage when viewed with a loupe. The two lesser charges of 17.0 and 17.5 show no issues.

The case head expansion shows .002" from low to OMG!
 
You can also see in the center case brass flow into the ejector hole (savage) further backing up what happened to the primers.

It just blows my mind (and primers) that this all happened within published data!

From a 26" barrel velocity was impressive though. 2400-2500fps
 
Here's what I had to work with.

d395615fb950d9f368f2a588a4c59f1e.jpg

One gripe I have is the manufacturers have gotten lazy! This cartridge is less than a decade old and the only pressure tested data I can find is in CUP?!?

What is this 1966?

My COL only had .186" of bullet shank in the case and .180" back off the rifling
 
ArchAngelCD said:
It looks like the 3 sources who said 18.0gr was the max knew what they were talking about, no?
Click to expand...



Yeah but you have to question a max that's apparently less than .5 grains away from the primers falling out. This case head and primer pocket should be good for 60k psi.

Which brings us full circle to LIL GUN being spiky and unforgiving. As well as inaccurate and a throat eater.
 
R.W.Dale said:
Yeah but you have to question a max that's apparently less than .5 grains away from the primers falling out. This case head and primer pocket should be good for 60k psi.

Which brings us full circle to LIL GUN being spiky and unforgiving. As well as inaccurate and a throat eater.
Click to expand...
All seems true, no arguments here.

Thanks for the warning and info.
 
Something is really Really REALLY wrong here.
QL tells me that's barely a 36ksi load.
(and 20gr is only 45ksi)



An aside that Lil`Gun is doing absolutely yeoman 35ksi/heavy bullet work in my Beowulf
(though admittedly a straightwall case)

.
 
Last edited:
Is it possible the pocket was already loose or damages when removing the crimp?

The pocket sure does look normal in the picture, I'm just asking questions, not doubting you.
__________________
Click to expand...

and

I've been reloading and even wildcatting for 15 years now and this is the first time I've gotten any kind of "textbook" pressure signs
Click to expand...

The problem is, you aren't getting textbook pressure signs. That would start with cratered/flattened/deformed primers and move onward. What you appear to have is loose primer pockets caused by some other condition.

As someone is now working it out, that load isn't anywhere near maximum pressure.

I might contact hodgdon and see if they have any feedback on your lot of powder ?

Id also be very interested in the interior dimension of the primer pockets. Ive seen folks get really aggressive with pocket uniformers after removing crimping, and actually widen the pockets causing.....exactly the kind of gas leakage you are getting now.

$0.02

The clearest indication something is amiss is the complete lack of pressure signs on the actual primer. Primer blow-by without primer deformation is not a classic pressure sign, its a sign of primer cup or primer pocket failure. Your primers are completely factory round and curved, with zero crating. That'd be the oddest over-pressure rifle load i've ever seen.

The other rounds at 18.5 showed signs of severe leakage, 18.0 shows very minute signs of leakage when viewed with a loupe. The two lesser charges of 17.0 and 17.5 show no issues.
Click to expand...

^^^further evidence. If you were approaching maximum pressure, you would be getting incremental primer deformation. You are getting gas leakeage. Thats a pressure situation, but not an over-pressure one. Its a pressure release issue. You've sprung a leak, and found about the exact point at which the dam bursts due to that condition would be my guess.

Can you reload these cases with a known functional load and see what happens then ?

It is entirely possible you got a lot of powder that performs all out of combobulation with known lil' gun specifics, but if that were the case, it'd behoove you and other shooters to let hodgdon know about that. Hopefully we dont arrive there, but if we do, thats what I'd ask you to do........
 
Last edited:
the hodgdon msds for their ball powders shows a 0-42 percent by weight range for the nitroglycerin content. i'll bet ya lil gun is the 42 percent. smok'in!!

nitrocellulose content is 50-100 percent. funny, i didn't think hodgdon had a single-base pistol powder.

murf
 
blarby said:
and



The problem is, you aren't getting textbook pressure signs. That would start with cratered/flattened/deformed primers and move onward. What you appear to have is loose primer pockets caused by some other condition.

As someone is now working it out, that load isn't anywhere near maximum pressure.

I might contact hodgdon and see if they have any feedback on your lot of powder ?

Id also be very interested in the interior dimension of the primer pockets. Ive seen folks get really aggressive with pocket uniformers after removing crimping, and actually widen the pockets causing.....exactly the kind of gas leakage you are getting now.

$0.02

The clearest indication something is amiss is the complete lack of pressure signs on the actual primer. Primer blow-by without primer deformation is not a classic pressure sign, its a sign of primer cup or primer pocket failure. Your primers are completely factory round and curved, with zero crating. That'd be the oddest over-pressure rifle load i've ever seen.



^^^further evidence. If you were approaching maximum pressure, you would be getting incremental primer deformation. You are getting gas leakeage. Thats a pressure situation, but not an over-pressure one. Its a pressure release issue. You've sprung a leak, and found about the exact point at which the dam bursts due to that condition would be my guess.

Can you reload these cases with a known functional load and see what happens then ?

It is entirely possible you got a lot of powder that performs all out of combobulation with known lil' gun specifics, but if that were the case, it'd behoove you and other shooters to let hodgdon know about that. Hopefully we dont arrive there, but if we do, thats what I'd ask you to do........
Click to expand...



I'm going to have to disagree with your entire premise as it's based on the false assumption that this primer and case head somehow knows it's supposed to flatten and deform at 300blk pressure and not a significantly higher pressure as it would be subjected to in any number of other cartridges. The primer simply doesn't know it's loaded in 204 ruger or 300blk, 6mm BR or small primer 308 and this rifle could be ANY of those cartridges.

It's possible that there's some damage to the pocket, yet none of the lower charges showed any signs of distress and the primers seated quite snugly one at a time with my ram prime. There also obvious brass flow into the ejector hole at 18.5g which would be wholly independent of primer pocket status. In fact two rounds before the primer fell out my first indication that 18.5 was over the top was a somewhat heavy bolt lift and the bright mark on the case shown above from brass flow.

An overpressure event did occur here. This is how lil gun acted ten years ago when I discontinued using it to chase that ever elusive 2000fps 158g carbine load, everything would be fine then you'd randomly get a obviously overpressure event that'd render a new piece of brass unreloadable even within published data.
 
Quote
[I don't think so, all I did with regard to crimp removal was a quick chamfer with a Phillips bit at the edge of the pocket. The other rounds at 18.5 showed signs of severe leakage, 18.0 shows very minute signs of leakage when viewed with a loupe. The two lesser charges of 17.0 and 17.5 show no issues.]

I would say chamfering with a phillips bit is a bad idea. The flash hole in your picture looks like it may be enlarged. Could the tip of the bit have enlarged the flash hole. I Know an oversize flash hole can cause to much pessure on the primer.
 
aladdin said:
Quote

[I don't think so, all I did with regard to crimp removal was a quick chamfer with a Phillips bit at the edge of the pocket. The other rounds at 18.5 showed signs of severe leakage, 18.0 shows very minute signs of leakage when viewed with a loupe. The two lesser charges of 17.0 and 17.5 show no issues.]



I would say chamfering with a phillips bit is a bad idea. The flash hole in your picture looks like it may be enlarged. Could the tip of the bit have enlarged the flash hole. I Know an oversize flash hole can cause to much pessure on the primer.
Click to expand...



Not a chance. The bit I have just barely enters the pocket enough to ream just the crimped edge off, it doesn't intrude into the pocket body at all. It's much less invasive than an actual pocket uniformer. I've prepared hundreds of 223 cases in the same manner with never an issue.

Like I said it doesn't account for the brass flow.
 
Not that I am a Lil Gun fan, I am not, but maybe you had bullet set back with that 125 Gr TNT.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

someguy2800
  • Locked
Cold weather powder/primer temp sensitivity testing results
2
Replies
29
Views
4K
Bbear
Bbear
B
  • Locked
CPS called on me and girlfriend because I own guns.
2 3 4
Replies
87
Views
9K
Jorg Nysgerrig
J
P
  • Locked
38/44 Ammo Testing – Factory and Reload
Replies
12
Views
649
wlewisiii
W
A
  • Locked
How to stop flinching, see the sights, and quit missing low-and-left
2 3 4 5
Replies
103
Views
18K
spar10
S
Gatofeo
  • Locked
So you want a cap and ball revolver?
2 3
Replies
65
Views
32K
madcratebuilder
M
Back
Top